News Briefing
Ford's Turkish future
THIS week the Daily Echo exclusively published a leaked memo that appeared to cast doubt over whether the factory continued to produce Transit vans at current volumes. The memo to Ford staff revealed the company was
"continuing to review possible alternative scenarios for the future of the plant" while staff feared production could be halved. Here Simon Carr looks at another staff concern - the possibility that work may transfer to Ford's Turkish plant.
AS FEARS over job losses at the Ford plant in Southampton grow, comments on the company website will do little to ease workers' concerns.
The Ford Motor Company - which owns 41 per cent of Turkish Transit plant Ford Otosan - talks about Turkey's burgeoning economy and praises the country as one of the leading exporters of vehicles to Europe.
And the website notes: "At the head of the pack in the Turkish automotive sector is Ford, both in terms of sales and production. No wonder, then, that Turkey is one integral part of Ford of Europe's plans for the future."
"In all, Turkey has grown in a relatively short period of time to become a major centre for automotive manufacturing and design. For Ford Motor, Turkey is another key to global success."
This observation will do much to add to the anxiety already felt in Swaythling where staff claim they have been told that production will be cut from 80,000 Ford Transits a year to just 35,000.
Moreover, many workers have told the Echo they think the extra work will go to Turkey where labour costs and overheads are cheaper.
The memo leaked to the Echo stated that the company had found a "number of economic and operating factors which make it very difficult to achieve a high level of investment in Southampton that would enable us to continue at current volume levels".
So what of the Turkey plant?
Opened in 2001 the Kocaeli plant in Turkey currently produces more than 200,000 Transits and the lighter Transit Connects a year.
Southampton workers fear that the operation in Turkey will start to focus its efforts on the traditional Transit when work on the new Transit begins in 2010 with worrying implications for the Southampton plant.
Meanwhile Ford confirmed to the Daily Echo that its recently opened Craiova plant in Romania will start producing Transit Connects in 2009 which could theoretically be used to free up room at the $650m Turkish facility according to some Swaythling workers.
Back in Turkey the Kocaeli plant was opened by the country's deputy prime minister Mesut Yilmaz seven years ago who predicted that when at full capacity the plant would provide as many as 4,000 jobs and develop Turkey's importance in the industrialised world.
The Daily Echo asked Ford for photographs of the Turkish site but a spokesman said: "We don't want to enlarge your story."
The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium and it was a strike there that brought the Southampton facility to a standstill in 2003 when Swaythling could not get essential parts delivered.
This year Ford also announced that it will be investing in new plants in India and Mexico.
'We will do all we can to help ford'
COUNCIL bosses have pledged to do all they can to keep the Ford plant in Southampton.
Southampton City Council leader Royston Smith said: "The last thing I want is for people to lose their jobs. Also the Transit promotes the city as everyone knows Southampton is the Home of the Transit'.
"We would very much like to work with them. We will be talking to Ford to see what we can do to support them, we want to do whatever we can to encourage them to stay and remove obstacles that might prevent that."
Those sentiments were echoed by Eastleigh Borough Council leader Keith House.
He said: "We are never complacent about companies in the area and we know that companies like Ford are always evaluating their business.
"We are in constant contact with Ford and will continue to have an ongoing dialogue. We will do anything we can to help keep them here as they are a much valued employer and an asset to the area."
Southampton and Fareham Chamber of Commerce and Industry director general Jimmy Chestnutt said: "We understand why Ford is reluctant to comment while discussions are ongoing and that they have to review all their operations in the light of the economic climate and ever increasing environmental pressures.
"However, Ford are a large and important employer and Southampton has been home of the Ford Transit for many, many years.
"Any loss of product and or reduction in the size of the workforce will be a blow to the city region."
National officer for the Transport and General Workers' Union, David Osborne, told the Echo it was wrong to infer that one option was closure as it had never been mooted.
He said: "Basically it is much too early to talk about anything. There's nothing there for public consumption."
A Ford spokesman refused to comment on what options were under consideration.
9:03am Sunday 13th July 2008
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CommentPosted by: Car driver on 9:16am Sun 13 Jul 08
"However, Ford are a large and important employer and Southampton has been home of the Ford Transit for many, many years"
I did read that Ford originally wanted to build their first new plant in the UK down near where the western docks/container port is now. That 1920's plan was turned down by the local planners at the time so Ford went to Thames estuary and developed sites at Dagenham.
"However, Ford are a large and important employer and Southampton has been home of the Ford Transit for many, many years"
I did read that Ford originally wanted to build their first new plant in the UK down near where the western docks/container port is now. That 1920's plan was turned down by the local planners at the time so Ford went to Thames estuary and developed sites at Dagenham.
Posted by: Bacardi Bob, Southampton on 9:25am Sun 13 Jul 08
Ford's will follow in the footsteps of Bacardi...They were the OTHER big employer in the area, production started to slow because of the market, Now shut down, all the production now done in Bacardi Germany...cheaper market, cheaper labour...IT's ON THE CARDS...only time will tell.
Ford's will follow in the footsteps of Bacardi...They were the OTHER big employer in the area, production started to slow because of the market, Now shut down, all the production now done in Bacardi Germany...cheaper market, cheaper labour...IT's ON THE CARDS...only time will tell.
Posted by: big nose chamelion, outer space,la -la land on 9:48am Sun 13 Jul 08
i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.[bold]bold[/bold]
i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.
Posted by: John, Southampton on 11:30am Sun 13 Jul 08
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction!
The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction!
The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.
Posted by: wrong again, Bitterne on 11:44am Sun 13 Jul 08
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 12:04pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]wrong again[/bold] wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
[/quote] they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.
wrong again wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.
Posted by: Fred on 12:27pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]wrong again[/bold] wrote: "The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE [/quote] they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.[/quote] Mouthy wrote:-
"member of the EEC"
What is that then?
southy wrote:
wrong again wrote: "The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
they can be made in belgium,they have made them in the pass,but they can also make other ford models.if fords move to turkey with the transit,then its to supply the middle east and not EEC,turkey is not a member of the EEC (turkey been refused twice)and would be subject to the anti flooding laws.whitch in turn would push the price up to about the same has GM dodge van.
Mouthy wrote:-
"member of the EEC"
What is that then?
Posted by: Matthew, Los Angeles on 1:06pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Ciaran[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Cyn ikall[/bold] wrote: most people know that the \\\'Ford group\\\' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global \\\'american\\\' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?[/quote] Turkey is secular and certainly isn\\\'t third world.[/quote] This idiot is ignorant red neck
Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it
Ciaran wrote:
Cyn ikall wrote: most people know that the 'Ford group' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global 'american' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?
Turkey is secular and certainly isn't third world.
This idiot is ignorant red neck
Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 1:07pm Sun 13 Jul 08
europian economic commonmarket
fred also known has eu
europian economic commonmarket
fred also known has eu
Posted by: Fred on 1:33pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu [/quote] You ignorance knows no bounds does it?
It's the ignorance of people like you wot make this cun tree wot it iz 2day.
southy wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu
You ignorance knows no bounds does it?
It's the ignorance of people like you wot make this cun tree wot it iz 2day.
Posted by: Sheitma Pance, Soton on 1:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.
This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.
Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.
Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.
This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.
Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.
Posted by: Your Economics treacher on 1:38pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu [/quote] The EU was called the EEC until 1992.
EEC = European Economic Community, often known as the Common Market.
southy wrote:
europian economic commonmarket fred also known has eu
The EU was called the EEC until 1992.
EEC = European Economic Community, often known as the Common Market.
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 1:48pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Sheitma Pance[/bold] wrote:
Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.
This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.
Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.[/quote] there last appliction was for 2015,and was refused on the grounds,they will not leave cyprus.while turkey remains in that country they will not gain entry.so fords will have along wait.
Sheitma Pance wrote:
Turkey could well become a member of the EU by 2013.
This would fit in with possible Fords plans: Introduce the new model in 2010 with intitial production in Belgium and small scale production in Turkey. The Soton plant would be ramped down and close in 2011-ish.
Come 2013 all production would switch to Turkey.
there last appliction was for 2015,and was refused on the grounds,they will not leave cyprus.while turkey remains in that country they will not gain entry.so fords will have along wait.
Posted by: Ian, bitterne park on 3:39pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area. [/quote] No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.
People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.
Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.
John wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.
No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.
People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.
Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.
Posted by: Gardener, soton on 4:44pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !
Posted by: wild bill, millbrook hous est on 5:06pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Gardener[/bold] wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica ![/quote] Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener.
Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.
Gardener wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !
Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener.
Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.
Posted by: Fred on 5:09pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Gardener[/bold] wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica ![/quote] You got that right - although I do have some sympathy for real vegetables.
Gardener wrote:
Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !
You got that right - although I do have some sympathy for real vegetables.
Posted by: Your English teacher on 5:12pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]wild bill[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Gardener[/bold] wrote: Fred - Southy, genus Brassica ![/quote] Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener. Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.[/quote] "descent conversation" - is that one that goes down?
You and Southy really should meet up because only you two can understand each other.
wild bill wrote:
Gardener wrote: Fred - Southy, genus Brassica !
Normaly you find people who call other people name like that gardener. Are normaly one them selfs, and are on the bot dim side,and can't hold a descent conversation,I find that southy is more than a Brassica (plant of the mustard/cabbage family).If you took your time and check on things he said,Alot of the times he is right or very close to being right,And he do make an error he will amitt it,and say sorry unlike 90% of the people that post in here.
"descent conversation" - is that one that goes down?
You and Southy really should meet up because only you two can understand each other.
Posted by: John, southampton on 5:15pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area. [/quote] No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.
People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.
Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.[/quote] And when the jobs go who has won.
That why jobs keep leaving UK
No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all.
Ian wrote:
John wrote:
The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.
No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut.
Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on.
People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut.
Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.
And when the jobs go who has won.
That why jobs keep leaving UK
No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all.
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 5:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher
,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person
bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher
,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person
Posted by: Bright Spark, Stubbington on 5:51pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]big nose chamelion[/bold] wrote:
i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.[bold]bold[/bold] [/quote] It's already full of gypsies and pikies.
big nose chamelion wrote:
i heard that the ford site will house 2,000 romanian gypsys,bigger site than monks brook.
It's already full of gypsies and pikies.
Posted by: Fred on 5:57pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher ,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person[/quote] You wish. It might just make you feel less inferior. But the majority here can write clear sentences, using the correct form of words.
southy wrote:
bill take no notice of him,treacher,teacher ,fred,gardener and host of other names are all the same person
You wish. It might just make you feel less inferior. But the majority here can write clear sentences, using the correct form of words.
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 7:20pm Sun 13 Jul 08
what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction
what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction
Posted by: Manic Depressive on 8:25pm Sun 13 Jul 08
The Turkish family that owns over 50% of the Ford plant in Kocaeli also owns most of the Turkish banks in the area and have reportedly offered the Ford motor company finance at a low interest rate. I reckon thats a good reason for Ford to pull out of Southampton.
The Turkish family that owns over 50% of the Ford plant in Kocaeli also owns most of the Turkish banks in the area and have reportedly offered the Ford motor company finance at a low interest rate. I reckon thats a good reason for Ford to pull out of Southampton.
Posted by: Grim Reaper, Swaythling on 8:29pm Sun 13 Jul 08
L[bold]bold[/bold] oads of Kebabs rock on!
L oads of Kebabs rock on!
Posted by: Manic Depressive on 8:51pm Sun 13 Jul 08
I reckon the Pikey's are already on the Ford southampton site,they disguise themselves as Penske contract workers. They also have a big fat roly poly american manager , i'm surprised the plant hasn't been flattened by her yet. May be all the Ford workers should club together and get her a plane ticket to Turkey so she can flatten the Kocaeli factory.
I reckon the Pikey's are already on the Ford southampton site,they disguise themselves as Penske contract workers. They also have a big fat roly poly american manager , i'm surprised the plant hasn't been flattened by her yet. May be all the Ford workers should club together and get her a plane ticket to Turkey so she can flatten the Kocaeli factory.
Posted by: hmm on 8:54pm Sun 13 Jul 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction[/quote] knowlegde = knowledge
whitch = which
grammer = grammar
excells = excels
Admit it, you work for the Echo.
southy wrote:
what gives you away is the lack of knowlegde of the area or its history and that you like to pick fault on spelling and grammer, whitch you are good at,but for get what one person may lack in but excells in others direction
knowlegde = knowledge
whitch = which
grammer = grammar
excells = excels
Admit it, you work for the Echo.
Posted by: King Mush, Woolston on 9:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep.
The country has been in political turmoil for decades.
It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment.
It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders.
Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world.
Be afraid - very afraid......
Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep.
The country has been in political turmoil for decades.
It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment.
It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders.
Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world.
Be afraid - very afraid......
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 9:54pm Sun 13 Jul 08
and thats why turkey will not be accepted in the eec,and will not till they leave cyprus and hand it all back to the greek cypreian
and thats why turkey will not be accepted in the eec,and will not till they leave cyprus and hand it all back to the greek cypreian
Posted by: Cyn ikall, southampton on 12:36am Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Matthew[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Ciaran[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Cyn ikall[/bold] wrote: most people know that the \\\'Ford group\\\' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global \\\'american\\\' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?[/quote] Turkey is secular and certainly isn\\\'t third world.[/quote] This idiot is ignorant red neck Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it[/quote] The fact its a muslim country has a lot to do with it! Religon and religous practise is the biggest threat to society! more war is caused by people believing they have a better imaginary friend then the other side!
as for the size of the countrys wealth who would of known they maybe 16th largest? its the fact they appear a third world muslim dominated backwater that the wealth surprises us all.
I'm guessing you are a turk due to your poor written english.
go back to ya kebab shop or taxi!
Matthew wrote:
Ciaran wrote: Cyn ikall wrote: most people know that the 'Ford group' are on major debt. Billions not millions! if they can save money (which they will) moving to a third world muslim country like turkey then thats what will happen. its very sad but Ford are a huge Global 'american' company with no loyalty to the UK. on the other hand,I wonder if they are really going coz they were scared of the proposed Pikey site?
Turkey is secular and certainly isn't third world.
This idiot is ignorant red neck Turkey is a 16th largest Economy in the World and what is they been Muslim got to do with it
The fact its a muslim country has a lot to do with it! Religon and religous practise is the biggest threat to society! more war is caused by people believing they have a better imaginary friend then the other side!
as for the size of the countrys wealth who would of known they maybe 16th largest? its the fact they appear a third world muslim dominated backwater that the wealth surprises us all.
I'm guessing you are a turk due to your poor written english.
go back to ya kebab shop or taxi!
Posted by: Big Boy, Hythe on 6:19am Mon 14 Jul 08
The Turkish Government is officially secular; however the population most certainly is not!
The development of a country is not dependent upon the size of the economy. If that was the case then Turkey would be more developed that Australia, which it patently is not. In terms of development I would put it on the same level as Kazakhstan (yes, I have been to both). Please use this link to find out how developed Turkey really is.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Developed_c
ountry
Transit production may go to Belgium, but is unlikely to go to Turkey for the reasons already stated by others.
The Turkish Government is officially secular; however the population most certainly is not!
The development of a country is not dependent upon the size of the economy. If that was the case then Turkey would be more developed that Australia, which it patently is not. In terms of development I would put it on the same level as Kazakhstan (yes, I have been to both). Please use this link to find out how developed Turkey really is.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Developed_c
ountry
Transit production may go to Belgium, but is unlikely to go to Turkey for the reasons already stated by others.
Posted by: Ian, bitterne park on 6:44am Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]John[/bold] wrote: The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area. [/quote] No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut. Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on. People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut. Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.[/quote] And when the jobs go who has won. That why jobs keep leaving UK No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all. [/quote] Well lets see a bit of sacrifice from the CEO of Fords. In fact lets see cuts in all managers wages and maybe see shareholders taking a dividend holiday for a couple of years (thats if Fords have shareholders!!)
Maybe the Fords company profit prediction that they work to could be halved for a couple of years to save the jobs.
It shouldnt be the workforce that has to suffer, high wages or not.
I thought everyone had to pull together but as usual it is expected the workforce has to take the hit.
John wrote:
Ian wrote: John wrote: The high costs here are the major factor, possibly the Unions and workers could agree a wage reduction! The wages paid by Ford are much higher than other wages in the area.
No one in any industry would agree to a wage cut. Unless the banks and building societies would cut their interest rates, or if rents would drop, or petrol prices would halve. I could go on. People work for a standard of living. Who in their right mind wants to see it cut. Arguing for workers to drop their wages is infantile.
And when the jobs go who has won. That why jobs keep leaving UK No one is suggesting min wage but maybe £25,000 might be better than no jobs at all.
Well lets see a bit of sacrifice from the CEO of Fords. In fact lets see cuts in all managers wages and maybe see shareholders taking a dividend holiday for a couple of years (thats if Fords have shareholders!!)
Maybe the Fords company profit prediction that they work to could be halved for a couple of years to save the jobs.
It shouldnt be the workforce that has to suffer, high wages or not.
I thought everyone had to pull together but as usual it is expected the workforce has to take the hit.
Posted by: Hakim, Chilworth on 7:57am Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote]King Mush, Woolston on 9:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep. The country has been in political turmoil for decades. It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment. It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders. Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world. Be afraid - very afraid......
[/quote]
Yes be afraid if you fear change.
Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it.
King Mush, Woolston on 9:35pm Sun 13 Jul 08
Turkey poses yet another threat on our doorstep. The country has been in political turmoil for decades. It IS a Muslim dominated country - hardly 'secular' They are all 'brothers' and we all know what that means if and when any crunch comes. Luckily - the West has used it as a strategic stop-off and flyover facility for skirmishes under NATO so some small comfort. At the moment. It is a back door for the Islamic hordes to the East - just look at the maps and see which loony Arab states adjoin the borders. Turkey invaded Northern Cyprus and have ILLEGALLY occupied it since 1974 - the state is not recognised anywhere in the world. Be afraid - very afraid......
Yes be afraid if you fear change.
Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it.
Posted by: Bob, Southampton on 10:30am Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]wrong again[/bold] wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE [/quote] Thank God you put us all right on that Wrong Again because Ford seem to think they do make the Transit in Genk and put that info on their website.
I'll contact them immediately to let them know they are wrong so they can clear out that plant.
Btw if you are going to be unbelievably smug and snide you should probably get your facts straight
wrong again wrote:
"The Transit is also made at the Genk plant in Belgium" - FALSE
Thank God you put us all right on that Wrong Again because Ford seem to think they do make the Transit in Genk and put that info on their website.
I'll contact them immediately to let them know they are wrong so they can clear out that plant.
Btw if you are going to be unbelievably smug and snide you should probably get your facts straight
Posted by: bobbyboy, soton watching telly for now on 10:49am Mon 14 Jul 08
no wonder they are threatening us grafters like tihs with you lot chatting on your PCs all day ????????
no wonder they are threatening us grafters like tihs with you lot chatting on your PCs all day ????????
Posted by: King Mush, Woolston on 11:25am Mon 14 Jul 08
HAKIM Chilworth:
"Yes be afraid if you fear change.
Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it"
Turkey owes much of its progress to the visionary Kemal Ataturk who dragged a backward country into the 20th century by modern reform.
Arabic script was replaced by Western writings along with banning the fez and other more important factors.
I'm sure you know this Mr Hakim.
However, Turkey is based on Islam and is currently experiencing its own problems with fundamentalists. Similar to Iran - a beautiful country with ana amazing culture and history, but ruled by stupid Islamic clerics. Still wishing to obliterate Israel along with it nuke ambitions.
You spout about 'Muslim countries prospering'? lol
The only Muslim countries that have 'prospered' are mostly due to their good fortune in having oil underneath their deserts! It would still be there if it wasnt for the Western 'infidels' and their technology.
You also spout that England/Britain is 'not the property of Europe'? I think you'll find that MOST UK citizens do NOT want to be part of this so called union - we have been suckered into it.
Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world.
Most Muslim countries are still 'backward' due to the underlying religious undertones that are a cancer of the modern world.
The sheer hypocrisy of this faith is well documented.
I trust you will be watching tonight's TV production on the Qu'uran? It might make for some uncomfortable viewing although I do not know from which angle it is being presented.
Turkey can get stuffed
HAKIM Chilworth:
"Yes be afraid if you fear change.
Sadly mr mush, that is the way the world is going. England/Britain is not the property of Europeans alone, and if in time the muslim community are more prosperous than the western, well, god willing, so be it"
Turkey owes much of its progress to the visionary Kemal Ataturk who dragged a backward country into the 20th century by modern reform.
Arabic script was replaced by Western writings along with banning the fez and other more important factors.
I'm sure you know this Mr Hakim.
However, Turkey is based on Islam and is currently experiencing its own problems with fundamentalists. Similar to Iran - a beautiful country with ana amazing culture and history, but ruled by stupid Islamic clerics. Still wishing to obliterate Israel along with it nuke ambitions.
You spout about 'Muslim countries prospering'? lol
The only Muslim countries that have 'prospered' are mostly due to their good fortune in having oil underneath their deserts! It would still be there if it wasnt for the Western 'infidels' and their technology.
You also spout that England/Britain is 'not the property of Europe'? I think you'll find that MOST UK citizens do NOT want to be part of this so called union - we have been suckered into it.
Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world.
Most Muslim countries are still 'backward' due to the underlying religious undertones that are a cancer of the modern world.
The sheer hypocrisy of this faith is well documented.
I trust you will be watching tonight's TV production on the Qu'uran? It might make for some uncomfortable viewing although I do not know from which angle it is being presented.
Turkey can get stuffed
Posted by: gorf on 11:38am Mon 14 Jul 08
i wont be going on holiday to turkey again.
nor will i buy a transit if it moves to turkey
bloody bird flu
i wont be going on holiday to turkey again.
nor will i buy a transit if it moves to turkey
bloody bird flu
Posted by: Hakim on 12:18pm Mon 14 Jul 08
Hypocricy?
Well king mush, what ever you may call it, it is and will, god willing, to continue to work for us.
I'm sorry you feel so threatened as to say "BE AFRAID".
The only thing that does not change in life is change. Get used to it kingmush. ;-)
Hypocricy?
Well king mush, what ever you may call it, it is and will, god willing, to continue to work for us.
I'm sorry you feel so threatened as to say "BE AFRAID".
The only thing that does not change in life is change. Get used to it kingmush. ;-)
Posted by: Test, I wonder if this map works ... on 12:22pm Mon 14 Jul 08
A view of Fords plant in Turkey .... (Thanks Google Maps!)
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://www.goog
le.co.uk/maps?f=q&am
p;hl=en&geocode=
&q=Ford,+Kocaeli
,+Turkey&ie=UTF8
&ll=40.871271,29
.84654&spn=0.305
976,0.880132&t=h
&output=embed&am
p;s=AARTsJrx1Dh4QMo6
5nDKvjBASWcsKNsHtQ">
</iframe><br /><small><a href="http://www.goo
gle.co.uk/maps?f=q&a
mp;hl=en&geocode
=&q=Ford,+Kocael
i,+Turkey&ie=UTF
8&ll=40.871271,2
9.84654&spn=0.30
5976,0.880132&t=
h&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF
;text-align:left">Vi
ew Larger Map</a></small>
A view of Fords plant in Turkey .... (Thanks Google Maps!)
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://www.goog
le.co.uk/maps?f=q&am
p;hl=en&geocode=
&q=Ford,+Kocaeli
,+Turkey&ie=UTF8
&ll=40.871271,29
.84654&spn=0.305
976,0.880132&t=h
&output=embed&am
p;s=AARTsJrx1Dh4QMo6
5nDKvjBASWcsKNsHtQ">
</iframe><br /><small><a href="http://www.goo
gle.co.uk/maps?f=q&a
mp;hl=en&geocode
=&q=Ford,+Kocael
i,+Turkey&ie=UTF
8&ll=40.871271,2
9.84654&spn=0.30
5976,0.880132&t=
h&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF
;text-align:left">Vi
ew Larger Map</a></small>
Posted by: Hakim on 1:47pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote]Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world[/quote]
It is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.
Backward? I think not!!!
Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world
It is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.
Backward? I think not!!!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 2:11pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Hakim[/bold] wrote:
[quote]Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world[/quote]
It is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.
Backward? I think not!!![/quote] hakim m8 you for get its the westerners that are dragging you forward.not your self.and its only happening in oil bearing and british commonwealth counrtys.you only got to look at the countrys that are not on them list.
Hakim wrote:
Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world
It is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed.
Backward? I think not!!!
hakim m8 you for get its the westerners that are dragging you forward.not your self.and its only happening in oil bearing and british commonwealth counrtys.you only got to look at the countrys that are not on them list.
Posted by: A turnaround? on 2:26pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Hakim[/bold] wrote:
[quote]Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand
more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the
Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world[/quote] It
is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the
muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures
being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god
willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west
failed.
Backward? I think not!!![/quote] So you simultaneously sing the praises of simple living [bold]and[/bold] claim that the Muslim workd is moving forward and becoming an advanced economy? Bit of a contradiction, no? Seems to me you're becoming the very thing you despise.
So once you've become an economic force to be reckoned with, presumably God will change his alleigance once more and implore his Christian followers to wage war on Muslims. Excellent news. I look forward to the rivers of Muslim blood being spilt, and the entire Muslim population treading on eggshells for fear of upsetting the Christian world in some way. Don't forget, images of Our Redeemer will be taboo, and punishable by death. I personally look forward to having a mansion in Turkey, and huge amounts of spare cash floating around, all funded by the Turkish natives, whilst I preach hatred toward all Muslims
Hakim wrote:
Our former 'enemies' now have the upper hand whilst more aand
more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the
Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world
It
is the modern world that has failed you sir.
You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the
muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines.
Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures
being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god
willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west
failed.
Backward? I think not!!!
So you simultaneously sing the praises of simple living
and claim that the Muslim workd is moving forward and becoming an advanced economy? Bit of a contradiction, no? Seems to me you're becoming the very thing you despise.
So once you've become an economic force to be reckoned with, presumably God will change his alleigance once more and implore his Christian followers to wage war on Muslims. Excellent news. I look forward to the rivers of Muslim blood being spilt, and the entire Muslim population treading on eggshells for fear of upsetting the Christian world in some way. Don't forget, images of Our Redeemer will be taboo, and punishable by death. I personally look forward to having a mansion in Turkey, and huge amounts of spare cash floating around, all funded by the Turkish natives, whilst I preach hatred toward all Muslims
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 2:59pm Mon 14 Jul 08
i all ready told hakim that the musslims will have to change,and they not got long to to change,only till the present crown is dead,then after that watch what happens.
i all ready told hakim that the musslims will have to change,and they not got long to to change,only till the present crown is dead,then after that watch what happens.
Posted by: King Mush, Woolston on 4:46pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Hakim[/bold] wrote:
[quote]Our former \'enemies\' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world[/quote] It is the modern world that has failed you sir. You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines. Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed. Backward? I think not!!![/quote] How come Hakim is posting from the privileged West? I dont normally go down any personal roads but just wonder from which country and perspective he comes from?
The 'modern world' has mostly benefitted mankind and we now live in a fairly healthy age, apart from those unfortunate people who happen to be born in a 3rd world country. Many of these countries' problems are self-inflicted - just take a look at the African countries many of which embrace Islam.
I guess Hakim is alluding to Dubai and its billion dollar developments? Thanks to oil this is all SPEND SPEND SPEND so hardly the result of any Eastern technology or advancement.
This explains why we are 'pitiful'? lol
Listen pal - the West has always been more successful over the last 2,000 years and will not be subjugated by any religious fervour that has manifested itself in such an evil way in recent years.
How come your Arab 'brothers' don't appear to use their obscene riches to help the Palestinians?
We all know why - it's because the Muslim world secretly loves the idea of conflict and the poor Palestinians are a very convenient excuse for waging war against infidels, Zionists or whatever stupid label they wish to use.
If most Muslims prefer a 'simple' life then why dont they all sod off to the desert and live in tents, caves with none of the advantages of the West that they despise so much?
I havent got time nor inclination to write a Mush essay on any particular Muslim nation but most of them are in a mess, despite having massive oil revenues.
Saudi Arabia is a feudal system and the many oil-rich sheiks live in a kind of opulence that seems at odds with the 'simple' outlook of Islam.
Hakim wrote:
Our former \'enemies\' now have the upper hand whilst more aand more backward countries (mostly self-inflicted) are now milking the Golden Calf as we subsidise the failures of the modern world
It is the modern world that has failed you sir. You underestimated simple living. Backwards is fine talk seeing as the muslim world is going forward whilst the west declines. Look at the middle easts advancement as an economy and the structures being built throughout. The west seems pitiful in comparison, god willing, the muslims will in time bring it forward, wher the west failed. Backward? I think not!!!
How come Hakim is posting from the privileged West? I dont normally go down any personal roads but just wonder from which country and perspective he comes from?
The 'modern world' has mostly benefitted mankind and we now live in a fairly healthy age, apart from those unfortunate people who happen to be born in a 3rd world country. Many of these countries' problems are self-inflicted - just take a look at the African countries many of which embrace Islam.
I guess Hakim is alluding to Dubai and its billion dollar developments? Thanks to oil this is all SPEND SPEND SPEND so hardly the result of any Eastern technology or advancement.
This explains why we are 'pitiful'? lol
Listen pal - the West has always been more successful over the last 2,000 years and will not be subjugated by any religious fervour that has manifested itself in such an evil way in recent years.
How come your Arab 'brothers' don't appear to use their obscene riches to help the Palestinians?
We all know why - it's because the Muslim world secretly loves the idea of conflict and the poor Palestinians are a very convenient excuse for waging war against infidels, Zionists or whatever stupid label they wish to use.
If most Muslims prefer a 'simple' life then why dont they all sod off to the desert and live in tents, caves with none of the advantages of the West that they despise so much?
I havent got time nor inclination to write a Mush essay on any particular Muslim nation but most of them are in a mess, despite having massive oil revenues.
Saudi Arabia is a feudal system and the many oil-rich sheiks live in a kind of opulence that seems at odds with the 'simple' outlook of Islam.
Posted by: Hakim on 5:35pm Mon 14 Jul 08
I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.
If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly.
Maybe you want me to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know, is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.
A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.
I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack, manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.
I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.
If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly.
Maybe you want me to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know, is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.
A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.
I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack, manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.
Posted by: Neville Kneivel on 5:55pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Hakim[/bold] wrote:
I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to
say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You
may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a
god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.
If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly. Maybe you want me
to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know,
is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.
A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth
is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.
I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack,
manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.[/quote] Hmm. I'm unconvinced that this passive-aggressivene
ss is really in keeping with the spirit of what you're trying to say. Oh, and what's with this "the love of [bold]a[/bold] god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting
Hakim wrote:
I could spend hours in replying to this tirade of phobia, suffice to
say, i cherish my simple living, whilst living in a modest luxury. You
may call this contradictive, but maybe you don't see how the love of a
god and the riches that life brings can be coupled.
If god was in your life, maybe you would see clearly. Maybe you want me
to live in a desert as this takes away your fears. One thing i do know,
is living in a desert, or living in a palace, my heart is still clear.
A lot of time is spent on this site pedalling hatred, when the truth
is, you could use that energy for more positive pursuits.
I wish you luck, god willing, that this strength you so clearly lack,
manifests in some way to make your life more abundant.
Hmm. I'm unconvinced that this passive-aggressivene
ss is really in keeping with the spirit of what you're trying to say. Oh, and what's with this "the love of
a god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting
Posted by: Hakim on 6:24pm Mon 14 Jul 08
The love of a god, is what it is meant. Nothing more, nothing less. If i asked you to look for riches in the love of [bold]MY[/bold] god, i would be falling into a trap of my own making, and one of which you would thrive.
So when you say with an arrogance and an obvious ignorance "Oh, and what's with this "the love of a god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting", you have not only failed in your attempted ridicule of a possible mistake you hoped i'd made, you also failed in your attempt to prove to the site that i accept no other than Allah.
Either way, you have failed!
Talking of gods, your name Neville Kneivel, is that after the stunt rider? Was he not a god in some peoples eyes?
The love of a god, is what it is meant. Nothing more, nothing less. If i asked you to look for riches in the love of
MY god, i would be falling into a trap of my own making, and one of which you would thrive.
So when you say with an arrogance and an obvious ignorance "Oh, and what's with this "the love of a god"? Is there more than one, then? Interesting", you have not only failed in your attempted ridicule of a possible mistake you hoped i'd made, you also failed in your attempt to prove to the site that i accept no other than Allah.
Either way, you have failed!
Talking of gods, your name Neville Kneivel, is that after the stunt rider? Was he not a god in some peoples eyes?
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 7:50pm Mon 14 Jul 08
nevelle m8,before you say any thing for it or not for it,learn the muslim history,how and where it came about,its a mix religion with with diffrent ideas from diffrent religion,:- like the way some force there female's dress is from a far east pagan religion that belives in the subpression of females,and what they belive in is christainty, and when you look at muslim history they have been on the march by force,look at the end of the eastern roman empire when it ended it was by invading the areas of turkey to morocco.whitch at the time was orthodox,jewish and pagan.and when they cant beat you in a straight war they use other ways, like flooding a country with there belivers then use terrorist tactics,to be a muslim means you belive in subpression.while holding the olive branch
nevelle m8,before you say any thing for it or not for it,learn the muslim history,how and where it came about,its a mix religion with with diffrent ideas from diffrent religion,:- like the way some force there female's dress is from a far east pagan religion that belives in the subpression of females,and what they belive in is christainty, and when you look at muslim history they have been on the march by force,look at the end of the eastern roman empire when it ended it was by invading the areas of turkey to morocco.whitch at the time was orthodox,jewish and pagan.and when they cant beat you in a straight war they use other ways, like flooding a country with there belivers then use terrorist tactics,to be a muslim means you belive in subpression.while holding the olive branch
Posted by: Hakim on 8:07pm Mon 14 Jul 08
Mr Southy dear fellow.
It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!
nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers
If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.
Mr Southy dear fellow.
It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!
nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers
If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.
Posted by: Neville Kneivel on 8:36pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Hakim[/bold] wrote:
Mr Southy dear fellow.
It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!
nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers
If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.[/quote] I'm having real trouble reconciling your airs of being a noble human being, and your obvious contempt for anyone who does not agree with you. I've read many of Mr Southy's posts here, and yes, their literacy leaves something do be desired. However, the content is consistently intelligent and informed. When he gets excited about a subject, his writing becomes a little rushed. I can only conclude that he suffers from dyslexia, an affliction which has no bearing on the level of his education, or his intellect. Sneering at him for this does little to further your claims to being pure of heart. Nor does your constant passive-aggressive sniping at all westerners.
I for one do not think Southy looks like a fool. I do, however, feel that your eagerness to fall back on spelling critique speaks volumes about how ill-thought-through your own opinions are. There is nothing at all to suggest that a certain standard of literacy and education is pre-requisite to giving a credible debate, and indeed there is a school of thought which says that intelligent discourse can be used to disguise weak points. As far back as the ancient Greeks, people have written of how powerful rhetoric can be used to persuade people of points which may not actually be logical at all. History is rife with great orators and writers who persuaded the masses they were right, when in fact they were nothing of the sort.
To wit, an argument and the way it is presented are two separate dimensions, and the quality of each can vary in quality independently. It's not an oxymoron. An idiot can still be right, and a clever man can still be wrong. Don't make the mistake of dismissing a refutal on such trivial grounds as spelling, and don't fall into the intelligence trap of believing that just because you make your point more eloquently than another, it is a more valid point
Talking down to people of a lesser perceived intellect than yourself, will only attract a stronger intellect to counter you. Don't tug at that thread
Hakim wrote:
Mr Southy dear fellow.
It also means education. What an advert you are for your country!!!
nevelle
m8
any thing
diffrent
belives
subpression
belive
christainty
whitch
belivers
If you have a fear as mr mush tells you you should, i think there is a greater one that you should embrace. This is, you need to be of a certain standard of literacy, with possession of education that gives credence to your debate, for without it, you look a fool.
I'm having real trouble reconciling your airs of being a noble human being, and your obvious contempt for anyone who does not agree with you. I've read many of Mr Southy's posts here, and yes, their literacy leaves something do be desired. However, the content is consistently intelligent and informed. When he gets excited about a subject, his writing becomes a little rushed. I can only conclude that he suffers from dyslexia, an affliction which has no bearing on the level of his education, or his intellect. Sneering at him for this does little to further your claims to being pure of heart. Nor does your constant passive-aggressive sniping at all westerners.
I for one do not think Southy looks like a fool. I do, however, feel that your eagerness to fall back on spelling critique speaks volumes about how ill-thought-through your own opinions are. There is nothing at all to suggest that a certain standard of literacy and education is pre-requisite to giving a credible debate, and indeed there is a school of thought which says that intelligent discourse can be used to disguise weak points. As far back as the ancient Greeks, people have written of how powerful rhetoric can be used to persuade people of points which may not actually be logical at all. History is rife with great orators and writers who persuaded the masses they were right, when in fact they were nothing of the sort.
To wit, an argument and the way it is presented are two separate dimensions, and the quality of each can vary in quality independently. It's not an oxymoron. An idiot can still be right, and a clever man can still be wrong. Don't make the mistake of dismissing a refutal on such trivial grounds as spelling, and don't fall into the intelligence trap of believing that just because you make your point more eloquently than another, it is a more valid point
Talking down to people of a lesser perceived intellect than yourself, will only attract a stronger intellect to counter you. Don't tug at that thread
Posted by: Me, soton on 8:52pm Mon 14 Jul 08
Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides ! I have respect for any religion - on condition it is kept to those that wish to follow. I for one will not be brainwashed. I make the decisions that affect my life, I cannot hold anyone or anything responsible for those times that things go awry. Respect for other people does not have to include a religion.
Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides ! I have respect for any religion - on condition it is kept to those that wish to follow. I for one will not be brainwashed. I make the decisions that affect my life, I cannot hold anyone or anything responsible for those times that things go awry. Respect for other people does not have to include a religion.
Posted by: Finlay, Des Moines - Iowa on 9:09pm Mon 14 Jul 08
So what happens with all the unskilled dross that such an event creates?
Factories are rather good at giving work to people that fall into the Taylor/White profile - They put this bit on that bit then promotion after five years doing that has them putting that bit into this bit and drilling a hole here then after twenty years they get to put this and that bit in the hole that this bit fits in but to all and sundry on the outside they [bold]'Build Ford Vans'[/bold]
Turkey is a good option - Learn the lingo, read up the Qoran get yourself a pretty prayer mat, practice sleeping on the floor under six 5KW fires and pop in a bucket of flies a day and hey it will be easy and its work after all albeit for a little less than youre worth and you dont need to book up your holidays in Turkey every year.
Good Deal!
Lets get real here most of the production guys were surprised when they started work there cos they thought Ford Van Plant was a Dutch painter anyway
So what happens with all the unskilled dross that such an event creates?
Factories are rather good at giving work to people that fall into the Taylor/White profile - They put this bit on that bit then promotion after five years doing that has them putting that bit into this bit and drilling a hole here then after twenty years they get to put this and that bit in the hole that this bit fits in but to all and sundry on the outside they
'Build Ford Vans'
Turkey is a good option - Learn the lingo, read up the Qoran get yourself a pretty prayer mat, practice sleeping on the floor under six 5KW fires and pop in a bucket of flies a day and hey it will be easy and its work after all albeit for a little less than youre worth and you dont need to book up your holidays in Turkey every year.
Good Deal!
Lets get real here most of the production guys were surprised when they started work there cos they thought Ford Van Plant was a Dutch painter anyway
Posted by: Hakim on 9:16pm Mon 14 Jul 08
So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?
I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.
The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam. You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.
As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.
So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?
I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.
The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam. You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.
As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.
Posted by: Hakim on 9:25pm Mon 14 Jul 08
[quote]Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides ![/quote]
The "YOUR" in question relates to the postion of southy standing firm as if islam has no place in this country. Thus meaning "YOUR COUNTRY" as in, i'm not welcome!
I hope this clarifies!
Hakim, you say "what an advert you are for YOUR country, - shows where your loyalty resides !
The "YOUR" in question relates to the postion of southy standing firm as if islam has no place in this country. Thus meaning "YOUR COUNTRY" as in, i'm not welcome!
I hope this clarifies!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 10:17pm Mon 14 Jul 08
neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.
hakim to answer your question will telling you maths,all types of history,all types of geography and physics top grades.
but my point is ford in turkey will not being suppying europe with the transit van, they will never be allowed into eec while they remain in cyprus,and not hand it back to greece who that island belongs to
neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.
hakim to answer your question will telling you maths,all types of history,all types of geography and physics top grades.
but my point is ford in turkey will not being suppying europe with the transit van, they will never be allowed into eec while they remain in cyprus,and not hand it back to greece who that island belongs to
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 10:20pm Mon 14 Jul 08
for got a bit hakim my stance on islam in this country will need and will change if it wants to remain here.even if it ends up force on islam.
for got a bit hakim my stance on islam in this country will need and will change if it wants to remain here.even if it ends up force on islam.
Posted by: King Mush, Woolston on 11:32pm Mon 14 Jul 08
May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam. In the main, I have NO problem with any race, creed, coluor or religion so long as it does not impinge on me or my fellow man.
You may find this strange, but I have had dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries.
Like most human beings, they are friendly, polite and live fairly respectable lives.
My main stance lies with the fundamentalists that have hi-jacked Islam to further their narrow minded ideology based on twisted interpretations of the Koran, Hadiths and all manner of Islamic literature. ALL written by MAN - not any god.
Religion is MAN MADE and I have been aware of this for most of my life.
How dare anybody suggest that I need any god? I dont believe in fairy tales and am constantly amazed how so many people can be suckered into it.
I actually live a well balanced life and do put a lot back into for others.
The main problem with trying to argue - or preferably - debate with any Muslim is based on their reluctance to condemn the actions of their lunatic fringes. They have their own enemy within but fail to act as they are all 'brothers'
Full stop.
May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam. In the main, I have NO problem with any race, creed, coluor or religion so long as it does not impinge on me or my fellow man.
You may find this strange, but I have had dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries.
Like most human beings, they are friendly, polite and live fairly respectable lives.
My main stance lies with the fundamentalists that have hi-jacked Islam to further their narrow minded ideology based on twisted interpretations of the Koran, Hadiths and all manner of Islamic literature. ALL written by MAN - not any god.
Religion is MAN MADE and I have been aware of this for most of my life.
How dare anybody suggest that I need any god? I dont believe in fairy tales and am constantly amazed how so many people can be suckered into it.
I actually live a well balanced life and do put a lot back into for others.
The main problem with trying to argue - or preferably - debate with any Muslim is based on their reluctance to condemn the actions of their lunatic fringes. They have their own enemy within but fail to act as they are all 'brothers'
Full stop.
Posted by: Hakim on 8:37am Tue 15 Jul 08
Well Mr Mush, when you say;
"Be afraid - very afraid......"
followed by;
"May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam".
I find your posts - as on previous occassions about myself and islam - contradictive and slightly amusing, unless of course, you are asking someone to be something you are not and would not be, to which i find this not only contradictive, but also insulting and an impingement on their intelligence as to not form their own opinion without you.
I find it difficult to see why you constantly talk of a contradictive religion, yet speak in contradictive tongue.
I am sure you will reply, with the same slight of rhetoric, with the normal twists and turns, but this is, not only expected, but a integral part of your posts.
loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith
The above are but a few of the posted words on this listing alone.
I dare to say one thing regarding southys intellect, and i am pulled through the mill for my words, yet all these nasty words above have had no reply - until now - from myself, as i try to keep the postings on a respectable level.
If you do like open debate and honesty Mr Mush, as you believe islam fails in, i hope next time you have "dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries", you lay it on the table beforehand, your beliefs and fears (Or non-fears, depending on which of your postings we read) so the muslim you have dealings with knows exactly where he stands.
Surely being the stand up honest human you are, who speaks of "hypocrisy of this faith" when islam is concerned, you would be first to tell a muslim how you felt, as not to undermine yourself and be exposed as a hypocrite of which you hold disdain. Wouldn't you?
Remember this Mr Mush, you know you are dealing with a muslim as you have told us you've had many dealings, so obviously know this to be fact, so with all your prejudices about the faith - and there have been many on this site from you - you can still make a choice to not deal. He on the other hand only knows you are there to do business, and can but assume you have no ill will towards him or his faith. Straight away the weight of yourself and the muslims belief, is firmly in your favour, though you still choose to deal.
Hypocracy is a word Mr Mush, you should choose wisely!
Well Mr Mush, when you say;
"Be afraid - very afraid......"
followed by;
"May I permit myself to establish that I have no 'fear' of Islam".
I find your posts - as on previous occassions about myself and islam - contradictive and slightly amusing, unless of course, you are asking someone to be something you are not and would not be, to which i find this not only contradictive, but also insulting and an impingement on their intelligence as to not form their own opinion without you.
I find it difficult to see why you constantly talk of a contradictive religion, yet speak in contradictive tongue.
I am sure you will reply, with the same slight of rhetoric, with the normal twists and turns, but this is, not only expected, but a integral part of your posts.
loony Arab states
stupid Islamic clerics
lunatic fringes
backward countries
terrorist tactics
hypocrisy of this faith
The above are but a few of the posted words on this listing alone.
I dare to say one thing regarding southys intellect, and i am pulled through the mill for my words, yet all these nasty words above have had no reply - until now - from myself, as i try to keep the postings on a respectable level.
If you do like open debate and honesty Mr Mush, as you believe islam fails in, i hope next time you have "dealings with many Muslims over many years and even in their own countries", you lay it on the table beforehand, your beliefs and fears (Or non-fears, depending on which of your postings we read) so the muslim you have dealings with knows exactly where he stands.
Surely being the stand up honest human you are, who speaks of "hypocrisy of this faith" when islam is concerned, you would be first to tell a muslim how you felt, as not to undermine yourself and be exposed as a hypocrite of which you hold disdain. Wouldn't you?
Remember this Mr Mush, you know you are dealing with a muslim as you have told us you've had many dealings, so obviously know this to be fact, so with all your prejudices about the faith - and there have been many on this site from you - you can still make a choice to not deal. He on the other hand only knows you are there to do business, and can but assume you have no ill will towards him or his faith. Straight away the weight of yourself and the muslims belief, is firmly in your favour, though you still choose to deal.
Hypocracy is a word Mr Mush, you should choose wisely!
Posted by: Neville Kneivel on 10:27am Tue 15 Jul 08
[quote] So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?[/quote]
Correct.
[quote]I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.
[/quote]
Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive.
[quote]The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam.[/quote]
Is it a phobia? Why? You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear
[quote]You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.[/quote]
I can. You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract [italic]betterness[/italic] over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it.
[quote]As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.[/quote]
So it's all about respect, then? You feel wronged, and lash out at those you think have wronged you. Tell me again that bit about pureness of heart? Nope, the game's up, chum. You're inciting flamewars and hoping to use Western guilt to avoid any comebacks. It hasn't worked, and you've reverted to type and decided to pick holes in someone elses personality. End of story
So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?
Correct.
I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question.
Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive.
The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam.
Is it a phobia? Why? You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear
You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.
I can. You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract
betterness over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it.
As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educated in many ares of which i know nothing, but when someone with not the slightest respect as to return a post to me, but takes it upon himself to write to the poster Neville and slander me whilst doing so, i can only assume his lack of literacy coupled with his ignorance, only means he is a rude illiterate.
So it's all about respect, then? You feel wronged, and lash out at those you think have wronged you. Tell me again that bit about pureness of heart? Nope, the game's up, chum. You're inciting flamewars and hoping to use Western guilt to avoid any comebacks. It hasn't worked, and you've reverted to type and decided to pick holes in someone elses personality. End of story
Posted by: Neville Kneivel on 10:31am Tue 15 Jul 08
Southy wrote:
[quote]neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.[/quote]
Ah. Figured it was something like that. Don't let the underhand debating tactics of Hakim phase you. Your points come through well enough
Southy wrote:
neville close but its not dyslexia my problem, i am ambidextrous,i use both sides of the brain at the same time,unlike mono dextrous people they only use one side of the brain depending wheather they left or right handed.
Ah. Figured it was something like that. Don't let the underhand debating tactics of Hakim phase you. Your points come through well enough
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 10:44am Tue 15 Jul 08
i dont i could tie him up in knots over history of his religion if i wish to do so,what a lot muslims belive is that there religion came from the middle east when it dont it came from asia,and is a mix of christain and pagan faiths.but then again so is christain religion.
i dont i could tie him up in knots over history of his religion if i wish to do so,what a lot muslims belive is that there religion came from the middle east when it dont it came from asia,and is a mix of christain and pagan faiths.but then again so is christain religion.
Posted by: Hakim on 11:11am Tue 15 Jul 08
[quote]Neville Kneivel on 10:27am today
[quote] So from your final paragraph, i can only surmise you believe you are the stronger intellect?[/quote] Correct. [quote]I post alone on this site, with no thought, search or indeed care if anyone backs up my words. Sadly, though obvious, the people that return posts regarding religion, areas, crime etc, often, but not always, return to islam. Fords re-locating to Turkey, will undoubtedly bring the word muslim to question. [/quote] Islam is something of a global hot button at the moment. To deny that is to be profoundly naive. [quote]The problem is, this thread started with Fords then Turkey then secular, then muslim, then king mush and his phobia concerning islam.[/quote] Is it a phobia? Why? You have already told us that Islam is becoming more of an economic threat to the west, so given that, the fear of Islam is hardly irrational, is it? Hence, not a phobia. I'm unconvinced KM fears Islam anyway. To disagree with the practices of another is not borne of fear [quote]You don't have to be a genius to realise the way in which any thread with a link to islam in anyway, will turn in to a snipe dig or all out barrage of abuse. You can turn this around all day, you can use the passive aggressive spin, but you cannot read this thread from top to bottom and say it has not turned from a simple re-location to a king mush fear factor.[/quote] I can. You repeatedly post deliberately inflammatory - albeit disguised - comments regarding ways in which your way of life has some abstract [italic]betterness[/italic] over that of non-Muslims. You can't really complain when people react to that. You've incited it. [quote]As for Southy and my dig at his literacy, he maybe well educat
