IT costs £1 a litre less to
produce, cuts CO2 emissions
by 50 per cent - and
smells like a chip shop.
Angelo Portelli, 45, is developing
bio-diesel, a cheaper and greener
alternative to fossil fuel diesel in
the south through his new company
Gr8green Ltd.
Mr Portelli, of Shirley,
Southampton, said: "People are fed
up with big oil companies and looking
to find other cleaner, cheaper
ways of getting their fuel.
"They are starting to realise that
we need to recycle and cut the
amount of waste to improve both
the world's economic climate and
the environment."
The process uses waste vegetable
oil from restaurants, pubs and takeaways
to create a diesel biofuel for
domestic vehicles.
The real beauty of the fuel is that
it can be put into any car's normal
diesel petrol tank, with no need for
modifications on the car.
advertisement
The first 2,500 litres produced in a
year are completely tax-free and it
typically costs between 15p and 20p
a litre to produce.
Preston-based Ecotec Resources
originally developed the idea and
having been trained in how to produce
it Mr Portelli brought biodiesel
down south.
To purchase the equipment needed
to make the bio-diesel he has had
to spend £975, but at a saving of £50
per batch he is confident of getting
his money back.
The relatively simple process of
cleaning the vegetable oil and making
it fit for a car's fuel tank takes 24
hours.
The process creates the by-product
glycerine, which can be used to
make household soap or fertiliser
for gardens - reducing waste even
further.
Mr Portelli believes the smell really
isn't that bad after it's been
processed, adding: "It starts off
smelling like a takeaway and then it
goes through the process and comes
out smelling a little like linseed oil.
"If I was a cyclist on a road I'd
much rather smell takeaway than
diesel fumes anyway, if it's good
enough for cooking, then it's good
enough to put in your car."
"On a personal level it's fantastic
for me to be able to drive past petrol
stations knowing that by producing
my own fuel I'm saving about £50 a
tank and will never have to visit one
again."
He believes greener fuels need
more support at a local government
level.
"I don't think local councils have
looked into it enough - they seem to
be reactive as opposed to proactive.
"The truly great thing about this is
you're not just saving money you're
helping the environment as well."
Ecotec Resources manufactures
the equipment to make the biodiesel
while also providing training
on how to make the fuel safely without
damaging your car.
Sales director David Taylor said:
"When a car running on bio-diesel
goes for an MOT we have seen figures
showing it cuts the car's CO2
emissions by asmuch as 88 per cent.
"There's still only 1,000 people a
year using bio-diesel though, it
tends to feel to people in the industry
that there's a lot going on but in
reality it's not, there's a lot of people
who are frightened of change.
"Ecotec is currently working with
a number of companies across the
EU and ideally we would like to set
up six more Angelo's at home to
develop bio-diesel in the UK."
Mr Portelli will be demonstrating
how to make the diesel and explaining
the cost involved at Bramshaw Village Hall, near Lyndhurst, on
August 24.
The bio-diesel training course
costs £120 and will run from 10am
until 4pm, the price includes food
and refreshment and there'll be a
reduction of £40 if you order a biodiesel
reactor.
For more information about biodiesel
and how you can start using
it email Mr Portelli at
angelo@gr8green.com.
Posted by: Mr Sport is Sport, In the toilet with a hard on 8:08am Wed 13 Aug 08
News Flash : 10.02am
'Southampton City Council Health and safety 'unit' raid premises in Shirley'
News Flash : 10.44
'Southampton City Council Health and safety make press announcement they are looking to produce a bio-fuel that they 'created' that is pleasent for the environment and cheap on the public. Gordon Brown is likely to attend'
News Flash : 10.02am
'Southampton City Council Health and safety 'unit' raid premises in Shirley'
News Flash : 10.44
'Southampton City Council Health and safety make press announcement they are looking to produce a bio-fuel that they 'created' that is pleasent for the environment and cheap on the public. Gordon Brown is likely to attend'
Starts off well then at the end we read:-
"The bio-diesel training course costs £120"
You would think the Planet savers would be doing this for free, for the love of it, for the children!
Starts off well then at the end we read:-
"The bio-diesel training course costs £120"
You would think the Planet savers would be doing this for free, for the love of it, for the children!
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] Yeh and aliens are beaming mind-control rays into your head as we speak!!
Wewullywinky wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
Yeh and aliens are beaming mind-control rays into your head as we speak!!
Posted by: Iain, Lordshill on 10:26am Wed 13 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it\'s difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won\'t let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] Ah, a good old conspiracy theory. And the government have covered it up, have they? The governemtn can't cover up who they're sleeping with and the fact that they don't like each other. I somehow don't think that they could keep something like this under wraps.
Wewullywinky wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it\'s difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won\'t let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
Ah, a good old conspiracy theory. And the government have covered it up, have they? The governemtn can't cover up who they're sleeping with and the fact that they don't like each other. I somehow don't think that they could keep something like this under wraps.
Hold on everyone - I'll ask my father in law how he produces this fuel and post answer on here for free!
£140 training my backside!!
Mind you, it's knackered my father in laws engine!!
Hold on everyone - I'll ask my father in law how he produces this fuel and post answer on here for free!
£140 training my backside!!
Mind you, it's knackered my father in laws engine!!
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] So, that would be electrolysis then. Pass an electric current through water and you get oxygen and hydrogen. Problem - you have to generate the electricity in the first place.
Why don't the people who promote all these stupid ideas realise that the net result is that you have to get your energy from somewhere? Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. Veggie oil in your diesel car? Enjoy - until your engine wrecks itself. And, of course, your use of plant derived oil for power means there's less plant available for food.
All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job.
Wewullywinky wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars.
On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water.
Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
So, that would be electrolysis then. Pass an electric current through water and you get oxygen and hydrogen. Problem - you have to generate the electricity in the first place.
Why don't the people who promote all these stupid ideas realise that the net result is that you have to get your energy from somewhere? Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. Veggie oil in your diesel car? Enjoy - until your engine wrecks itself. And, of course, your use of plant derived oil for power means there's less plant available for food.
All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job.
[quote][bold]Phil[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote: News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] So, that would be electrolysis then. Pass an electric current through water and you get oxygen and hydrogen. Problem - you have to generate the electricity in the first place. Why don't the people who promote all these stupid ideas realise that the net result is that you have to get your energy from somewhere? Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. Veggie oil in your diesel car? Enjoy - until your engine wrecks itself. And, of course, your use of plant derived oil for power means there's less plant available for food. All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job. [/quote] All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job
I agree 'there is no true green alternative to power our lives' governments have created a band wagon to enable them to put their hands further into our pockets.
On your comment Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. How much more engery will it cost. How much energy is need to produce hydrogen in electrolysis.
To make it green then the electricity supplied to our homes needs to be green
Phil wrote:
Wewullywinky wrote: News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
So, that would be electrolysis then. Pass an electric current through water and you get oxygen and hydrogen. Problem - you have to generate the electricity in the first place. Why don't the people who promote all these stupid ideas realise that the net result is that you have to get your energy from somewhere? Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. Veggie oil in your diesel car? Enjoy - until your engine wrecks itself. And, of course, your use of plant derived oil for power means there's less plant available for food. All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job.
All 'green' means in the UK is TAX. No more, no less. And if you are too stupid to understand that you probably think the Labour Party is doing a good job
I agree 'there is no true green alternative to power our lives' governments have created a band wagon to enable them to put their hands further into our pockets.
On your comment Green cars? Well, the energy and carbon cost of manufacture is well above that of a 'normal' car. How much more engery will it cost. How much energy is need to produce hydrogen in electrolysis.
To make it green then the electricity supplied to our homes needs to be green
what sort of refreshments will be available on the training day?
i suspect fish and chips washed down with a nice pina-coilda (a pure vegi oil drink to me and you )
what sort of refreshments will be available on the training day?
i suspect fish and chips washed down with a nice pina-coilda (a pure vegi oil drink to me and you )
Posted by: Sheitma Pance, Soton on 12:20pm Wed 13 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] NO!
Putting straight Vegetable Oil in 90% of cars will damage the injector pump!
You must either convert the car to run on SVO or convert the oil into bio diesel!
Wewullywinky wrote:
News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
NO!
Putting straight Vegetable Oil in 90% of cars will damage the injector pump!
You must either convert the car to run on SVO or convert the oil into bio diesel!
[quote][bold]Sheitma Pance[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Wewullywinky[/bold] wrote: News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else. [/quote] NO! Putting straight Vegetable Oil in 90% of cars will damage the injector pump! You must either convert the car to run on SVO or convert the oil into bio diesel! [/quote] Works fine in my Disco as it's 13 years old
Sheitma Pance wrote:
Wewullywinky wrote: News flash by veggie oil from tescos, works just as well in diesel cars. On an even better note a company in Oxford,i believe, has invented a piece of material that can placed in the fuel line. This piece of material along with an engine mod can break water into it's difference molecules and you can run a hyrogen engine and thus fill it up with normal tap water. Goverenment won't let us use these fuels as they will loose money from fuel duty and will have to tax something else.
NO! Putting straight Vegetable Oil in 90% of cars will damage the injector pump! You must either convert the car to run on SVO or convert the oil into bio diesel!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 1:07pm Wed 13 Aug 08
the man is still breaking the law by not paying road fuel tax,even if you make your own fuel you still have to pay 100% fuel tax,this brings the price back up to what you pay in garages.
the very first diesel engine ran on peanut oil so its not a new thing has alot of people like you to think.all you need to do is filter the vegie oil though paper filters then add 5ml ( one table spoonful) of white spirt to every gallon of vegie oil its that easy
the man is still breaking the law by not paying road fuel tax,even if you make your own fuel you still have to pay 100% fuel tax,this brings the price back up to what you pay in garages.
the very first diesel engine ran on peanut oil so its not a new thing has alot of people like you to think.all you need to do is filter the vegie oil though paper filters then add 5ml ( one table spoonful) of white spirt to every gallon of vegie oil its that easy
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
the man is still breaking the law by not paying road fuel tax,even if you make your own fuel you still have to pay 100% fuel tax,this brings the price back up to what you pay in garages. the very first diesel engine ran on peanut oil so its not a new thing has alot of people like you to think.all you need to do is filter the vegie oil though paper filters then add 5ml ( one table spoonful) of white spirt to every gallon of vegie oil its that easy[/quote] The first 2,500 litres produced in a year are completely tax-free and it typically costs between 15p and 20p a litre to produce
According to the article 'The first 2,500 litres produced in a year are completely tax-free and it typically costs between 15p and 20p a litre to produce'
not exactly pump price
southy wrote:
the man is still breaking the law by not paying road fuel tax,even if you make your own fuel you still have to pay 100% fuel tax,this brings the price back up to what you pay in garages. the very first diesel engine ran on peanut oil so its not a new thing has alot of people like you to think.all you need to do is filter the vegie oil though paper filters then add 5ml ( one table spoonful) of white spirt to every gallon of vegie oil its that easy
The first 2,500 litres produced in a year are completely tax-free and it typically costs between 15p and 20p a litre to produce
According to the article 'The first 2,500 litres produced in a year are completely tax-free and it typically costs between 15p and 20p a litre to produce'
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 1:20pm Wed 13 Aug 08
not if your producing it at home its not,if your a company producing it then it is tax free but this counters the licence that needed to be able to produce fuels
not if your producing it at home its not,if your a company producing it then it is tax free but this counters the licence that needed to be able to produce fuels
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 4:35pm Wed 13 Aug 08
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.
Posted by: moominpapa, in the trees on 5:36pm Wed 13 Aug 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.[/quote] Yes you do 1st 2500 litres a year is free of duty. 2500 litres used svo = not alot.
2500 litres from a pump=£3000 how is this the same price????even paying a ridiculous £120 for something that takes 2minutes to find a decent website that tell you how to do it free!
southy wrote:
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.
Yes you do 1st 2500 litres a year is free of duty. 2500 litres used svo = not alot.
2500 litres from a pump=£3000 how is this the same price????even paying a ridiculous £120 for something that takes 2minutes to find a decent website that tell you how to do it free!
If it reduces the CO2 emisions by as much as 88%, then the Road Fund Licence, which is based on emmisions, should also be reduced. Can YOU see that happening??????????
If it reduces the CO2 emisions by as much as 88%, then the Road Fund Licence, which is based on emmisions, should also be reduced. Can YOU see that happening??????????
The "Earthrace" power boat has just broken world records by circumnavigating the world on bio diesel made from waste vegetable and is due to dock at Ocean Village this week end (15th-17th Aug 2008).
[italic]From the comments above it reminds me of that famous American president that said, "...that'll never take off" when presented with the first telephone! I thought the red necks only lived in America![/italic]
The "Earthrace" power boat has just broken world records by circumnavigating the world on bio diesel made from waste vegetable and is due to dock at Ocean Village this week end (15th-17th Aug 2008).
From the comments above it reminds me of that famous American president that said, "...that'll never take off" when presented with the first telephone! I thought the red necks only lived in America!
[quote][bold]fred bloggs[/bold] wrote:
The "Earthrace" power boat has just broken world records by circumnavigating the world on bio diesel made from waste vegetable and is due to dock at Ocean Village this week end (15th-17th Aug 2008). [italic]From the comments above it reminds me of that famous American president that said, "...that'll never take off" when presented with the first telephone! I thought the red necks only lived in America![/italic] [/quote] So famaous a President you failed to name him.
fred bloggs wrote:
The "Earthrace" power boat has just broken world records by circumnavigating the world on bio diesel made from waste vegetable and is due to dock at Ocean Village this week end (15th-17th Aug 2008). From the comments above it reminds me of that famous American president that said, "...that'll never take off" when presented with the first telephone! I thought the red necks only lived in America!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 7:55pm Wed 13 Aug 08
[quote][bold]moominpapa[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.[/quote] Yes you do 1st 2500 litres a year is free of duty. 2500 litres used svo = not alot.
2500 litres from a pump=£3000 how is this the same price????even paying a ridiculous £120 for something that takes 2minutes to find a decent website that tell you how to do it free![/quote] read what i said, in easy terms so you can under stand,if you try to make this at home,you are subject to full fuel tax,but if your a company you are excused the tax on the 1st 2500 lts but you have to pay for a goverment licence this amounts to being the same that you would save on 2500 lts plus if you are distiling then tahts another licence you have to pay for,and i for got this one,you can only stock pile a gallons at any one time i think its 10 gal not to sure on how much it but i do know low for road fuel
moominpapa wrote:
southy wrote:
its been one of my arguements for years,if you really look into it the goverment has it covered so you dont get it cheaper than the pumps,not with out breaking the law in some way or another.
Yes you do 1st 2500 litres a year is free of duty. 2500 litres used svo = not alot.
2500 litres from a pump=£3000 how is this the same price????even paying a ridiculous £120 for something that takes 2minutes to find a decent website that tell you how to do it free!
read what i said, in easy terms so you can under stand,if you try to make this at home,you are subject to full fuel tax,but if your a company you are excused the tax on the 1st 2500 lts but you have to pay for a goverment licence this amounts to being the same that you would save on 2500 lts plus if you are distiling then tahts another licence you have to pay for,and i for got this one,you can only stock pile a gallons at any one time i think its 10 gal not to sure on how much it but i do know low for road fuel
Posted by: michael thorpe, southampton on 8:25pm Wed 13 Aug 08
sorry my spelling is poor,
iv been saying make bio fule for years, after all the germans did this in the world war! i realy wont to try to make some just so i can stick two fingers up at the goverment for robing me for all them years, there greedy and hartless theevs who just wont to line there pockets first, so dio fule is the way to go, and oil compeny fat cats go swivel on this!
i hope you get it to work, but i bet you any thing you like the goverment will stomp on you to stop you doing it, they wont there blood money at any cost!
sorry my spelling is poor,
iv been saying make bio fule for years, after all the germans did this in the world war! i realy wont to try to make some just so i can stick two fingers up at the goverment for robing me for all them years, there greedy and hartless theevs who just wont to line there pockets first, so dio fule is the way to go, and oil compeny fat cats go swivel on this!
i hope you get it to work, but i bet you any thing you like the goverment will stomp on you to stop you doing it, they wont there blood money at any cost!
[quote][bold]the vengeful cabbage[/bold] wrote:
I run my car on scrambled eggs and toast. In order to find out how i'm doing this please send £500 to me![/quote] [bold]Quality![/bold]
the vengeful cabbage wrote:
I run my car on scrambled eggs and toast. In order to find out how i'm doing this please send £500 to me!
Posted by: John, Eastleigh on 10:53pm Wed 13 Aug 08
[quote]News Flash : 10.02am
'Southampton City Council Health and safety 'unit' raid premises in Shirley'quote[/quote]
Might not be far from the truth, following the explosion and fire at one home producers premises up north!
Then there's the waste transportation licencing and disposal regulations, the 'environment' unit will have an interest in anyone giving away waste oil without all the right paperwork in place.
Don't get me wrong, recycling used cooking oil (WVO) etc is a good thing, the problem is all the hoops you need to jump through, and some pretty unpleasant chemicals that are required to do it properly, even SVO which can be used in a blend with dino derv has issues unless converted, and costs as much as dino derv now too.
News Flash : 10.02am
'Southampton City Council Health and safety 'unit' raid premises in Shirley'quote
Might not be far from the truth, following the explosion and fire at one home producers premises up north!
Then there's the waste transportation licencing and disposal regulations, the 'environment' unit will have an interest in anyone giving away waste oil without all the right paperwork in place.
Don't get me wrong, recycling used cooking oil (WVO) etc is a good thing, the problem is all the hoops you need to jump through, and some pretty unpleasant chemicals that are required to do it properly, even SVO which can be used in a blend with dino derv has issues unless converted, and costs as much as dino derv now too.
a couple of facts for you all
1.tuning a car to lean burn fuel creates less co2 than your cat,it can also save fuel
2.filling your tyres with nitrogen instead of air will improve your fuel economy by as much as 20% when used in conjuction with 'lean burn' methods.
so the quetion is "why"???why has'nt gormless gordon & the goons implemented these measures,after all they keep telling us...or should that be taxing us....on our bad polluting habits,and the answer is simple...TAX,this government,like the next and the world over keep harping on about 'green issues' but in reality if everyone went electris with their motors this country would be bust inside of a year,the powers that be want you to keep burning fossil fuels,there is no viable alternative for them to re-coup the lost billions in taxes.
a couple of facts for you all
1.tuning a car to lean burn fuel creates less co2 than your cat,it can also save fuel
2.filling your tyres with nitrogen instead of air will improve your fuel economy by as much as 20% when used in conjuction with 'lean burn' methods.
so the quetion is "why"???why has'nt gormless gordon & the goons implemented these measures,after all they keep telling us...or should that be taxing us....on our bad polluting habits,and the answer is simple...TAX,this government,like the next and the world over keep harping on about 'green issues' but in reality if everyone went electris with their motors this country would be bust inside of a year,the powers that be want you to keep burning fossil fuels,there is no viable alternative for them to re-coup the lost billions in taxes.
Posted by: Dan Gleeballs, I'm not givin my address so perverts can see it!!! on 1:04am Thu 14 Aug 08
Don't spill that oil on ur lovely carpet.
Is this contraption in his bedroom could've cleaned up b4 the echo arrived.
[italic]Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893 - 1986[/italic] [quote][italic]Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893 - 1986[/italic][/quote]
Don't spill that oil on ur lovely carpet.
Is this contraption in his bedroom could've cleaned up b4 the echo arrived.
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893 - 1986
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893 - 1986
Posted by: now in the north, bolton, from southampton on 12:25pm Thu 14 Aug 08
I dont understand why so many people knock the 'conspiracy' theory. If you check who owns the patents on these 'free' fuels, none of them are owned by the original inventor but by the fuel industries like shell. Its an absolute FACT. We live in an expensive world and the government TAX you on everything they can that appears moral. If its not moral and not taxable its banned. Surely, on that alone, people should be jumping at the chance of free fuel. How much would you save per year based on todays rates, let alone indexed/inflated ones!
People are now finding what they think was a new idea, has already been patented! Please, if you come up with a great idea and you can patent it, dont sell the rest of us out to the powers of the oil companies!
I dont understand why so many people knock the 'conspiracy' theory. If you check who owns the patents on these 'free' fuels, none of them are owned by the original inventor but by the fuel industries like shell. Its an absolute FACT. We live in an expensive world and the government TAX you on everything they can that appears moral. If its not moral and not taxable its banned. Surely, on that alone, people should be jumping at the chance of free fuel. How much would you save per year based on todays rates, let alone indexed/inflated ones!
People are now finding what they think was a new idea, has already been patented! Please, if you come up with a great idea and you can patent it, dont sell the rest of us out to the powers of the oil companies!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 12:36pm Thu 14 Aug 08
using any type of oil in derv engines is not new the very first derv engine was ran on peanut oil,and it dont matter how old or new a engine is it will run on veggie oil,it will NOT damage your injectors or pump,
all you need to do is warm up the oil run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit to every gallon of oil
using any type of oil in derv engines is not new the very first derv engine was ran on peanut oil,and it dont matter how old or new a engine is it will run on veggie oil,it will NOT damage your injectors or pump,
all you need to do is warm up the oil run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit to every gallon of oil
There are many myths surrounding the production and use of Biodiesel, as evidenced by the comments attached to this article. This only serves to support the true value of the training to anyone inteested in the facts.
Ecotec Resources, a market leader in the supply of Biodiesel Equipment, materials & training, has appointed Gr8green as the distributor for the Southern Coastal regions, and will be providing them with full Technical support. The training on the 24th will be presented by an Ecotec trainer, and there will be equipment & products on display, along with advice for would be producers. The course can be booked via Gr8green or Ecotec. Ecotec produce Domestic, Light Commercial & Industrial Equipment covering the 50 to 50,000 litres capacity range.
[bold]www.etruk.com[/bold]
There are many myths surrounding the production and use of Biodiesel, as evidenced by the comments attached to this article. This only serves to support the true value of the training to anyone inteested in the facts.
Ecotec Resources, a market leader in the supply of Biodiesel Equipment, materials & training, has appointed Gr8green as the distributor for the Southern Coastal regions, and will be providing them with full Technical support. The training on the 24th will be presented by an Ecotec trainer, and there will be equipment & products on display, along with advice for would be producers. The course can be booked via Gr8green or Ecotec. Ecotec produce Domestic, Light Commercial & Industrial Equipment covering the 50 to 50,000 litres capacity range. www.etruk.com
Posted by: wild bill, millbrook hous est on 10:48pm Thu 14 Aug 08
If your intrested in the true facts,There a TV program called Myths Busters,If you been watching the programs you might of come across one show,where they got hold off 45 gallons of veggie oil and left the diesel engine running on veggie oil.
Then had the whole engine sent to an expert to see what damage was done to the engine,The report came back saying normal engine ware.
If your intrested in the true facts,There a TV program called Myths Busters,If you been watching the programs you might of come across one show,where they got hold off 45 gallons of veggie oil and left the diesel engine running on veggie oil.
Then had the whole engine sent to an expert to see what damage was done to the engine,The report came back saying normal engine ware.
Posted by: Angelo Portelli, Southampton on 9:04pm Fri 15 Aug 08
Hello all, it’s Angelo here, to be honest I’m a little concerned for several reasons, not least for the fact that I did not expect to make the front page of the Echo regarding the production of bio diesel, I just expected to have a small article in the Green section of the paper which as you may all know, has become a popular Wednesday supplement! Nor did I know how the article was to be presented!
In any event I thought it best if I allay any fears concerning my message,
Making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil is not a new process; in deed Ecotec have been doing this for some years now with some great success with many taking advantage of the process north of London. I just thought Southerners would like a bite of the cherry too!
Thankfully, the Earthrace power boat which is due to dock into Ocean Village this week end (15th -17th August 2008) has broken world records for the fastest time to circumnavigate the world. It runs on 100% recycled vegetable oil!
I understand that there are those out there that would rather spend £1 per litre to mix with normal diesel costing about £1.30 per litre in a 50% mix, but I do not think that represents a good saving in addition it’s not as environmentally friendly as using 100% waste vegetable oil. It doesn’t seem to make much economic sense either and those in the industry are starting to see the damage that straight vegetable oil mixed with diesel is doing to diesel fuel pumps.
Now to the subject of economics and maths when I went to school I was taught that 2500 multiplied by 1 = 2500, so if you save £1 per litre by making the bio diesel your self then for 2500 litres you save £2500!
Regarding the issue on exempt production I trust the following will enlighten some individuals:
Revenue & Customs Brief 43/07
Follow up to Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 on Biofuels Simplification
· Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07
issued on 19 April 2007 confirmed that the following changes applying to biofuel producers were to be introduced:
· A production threshold of 2,500 litres per annum below which producers will not need to enter premises, submit returns or pay duty, and
· A reduction in the frequency of returns for all but the largest producers (defined as those producing over 450,000 litres per annum) from monthly to quarterly.
We can now confirm that these measures will be introduced on 30 June 2007.
Hope the above information has been useful; I look forward to meeting those that are interested in this environmentally friendly way of producing your own fuel.
Hello all, it’s Angelo here, to be honest I’m a little concerned for several reasons, not least for the fact that I did not expect to make the front page of the Echo regarding the production of bio diesel, I just expected to have a small article in the Green section of the paper which as you may all know, has become a popular Wednesday supplement! Nor did I know how the article was to be presented!
In any event I thought it best if I allay any fears concerning my message,
Making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil is not a new process; in deed Ecotec have been doing this for some years now with some great success with many taking advantage of the process north of London. I just thought Southerners would like a bite of the cherry too!
Thankfully, the Earthrace power boat which is due to dock into Ocean Village this week end (15th -17th August 2008) has broken world records for the fastest time to circumnavigate the world. It runs on 100% recycled vegetable oil!
I understand that there are those out there that would rather spend £1 per litre to mix with normal diesel costing about £1.30 per litre in a 50% mix, but I do not think that represents a good saving in addition it’s not as environmentally friendly as using 100% waste vegetable oil. It doesn’t seem to make much economic sense either and those in the industry are starting to see the damage that straight vegetable oil mixed with diesel is doing to diesel fuel pumps.
Now to the subject of economics and maths when I went to school I was taught that 2500 multiplied by 1 = 2500, so if you save £1 per litre by making the bio diesel your self then for 2500 litres you save £2500!
Regarding the issue on exempt production I trust the following will enlighten some individuals:
Revenue & Customs Brief 43/07
Follow up to Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 on Biofuels Simplification
· Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07
issued on 19 April 2007 confirmed that the following changes applying to biofuel producers were to be introduced:
· A production threshold of 2,500 litres per annum below which producers will not need to enter premises, submit returns or pay duty, and
· A reduction in the frequency of returns for all but the largest producers (defined as those producing over 450,000 litres per annum) from monthly to quarterly.
We can now confirm that these measures will be introduced on 30 June 2007.
Hope the above information has been useful; I look forward to meeting those that are interested in this environmentally friendly way of producing your own fuel.
Posted by: Angelo Portelli, Southampton on 9:11pm Fri 15 Aug 08
Alpologies for missing new vegetable oil in the above post- Hello all, it’s Angelo here, to be honest I’m a little concerned for several reasons, not least for the fact that I did not expect to make the front page of the Echo regarding the production of bio diesel, I just expected to have a small article in the Green section of the paper which as you may all know, has become a popular Wednesday supplement! Nor did I know how the article was to be presented!
In any event I thought it best if I allay any fears concerning my message,
Making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil is not a new process; in deed Ecotec have been doing this for some years now with some great success with many taking advantage of the process north of London. I just thought Southerners would like a bite of the cherry too!
Thankfully, the Earthrace power boat which is due to dock into Ocean Village this week end (15th -17th August 2008) has broken world records for the fastest time to circumnavigate the world. It runs on 100% recycled vegetable oil!
I understand that there are those out there that would rather spend £1 per litre on new vetetable oil to mix with normal diesel costing about £1.30 per litre in a 50% mix, but I do not think that represents a good saving in addition it’s not as environmentally friendly as using 100% waste vegetable oil. It doesn’t seem to make much economic sense either and those in the industry are starting to see the damage that straight vegetable oil mixed with diesel is doing to diesel fuel pumps.
Now to the subject of economics and maths when I went to school I was taught that 2500 multiplied by 1 = 2500, so if you save £1 per litre by making the bio diesel your self then for 2500 litres you save £2500!
Regarding the issue on exempt production I trust the following will enlighten some individuals:
Revenue & Customs Brief 43/07
Follow up to Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 on Biofuels Simplification
· Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07
issued on 19 April 2007 confirmed that the following changes applying to biofuel producers were to be introduced:
· A production threshold of 2,500 litres per annum below which producers will not need to enter premises, submit returns or pay duty, and
· A reduction in the frequency of returns for all but the largest producers (defined as those producing over 450,000 litres per annum) from monthly to quarterly.
We can now confirm that these measures will be introduced on 30 June 2007.
Hope the above information has been useful; I look forward to meeting those that are interested in this environmentally friendly way of producing your own fuel.
Alpologies for missing new vegetable oil in the above post- Hello all, it’s Angelo here, to be honest I’m a little concerned for several reasons, not least for the fact that I did not expect to make the front page of the Echo regarding the production of bio diesel, I just expected to have a small article in the Green section of the paper which as you may all know, has become a popular Wednesday supplement! Nor did I know how the article was to be presented!
In any event I thought it best if I allay any fears concerning my message,
Making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil is not a new process; in deed Ecotec have been doing this for some years now with some great success with many taking advantage of the process north of London. I just thought Southerners would like a bite of the cherry too!
Thankfully, the Earthrace power boat which is due to dock into Ocean Village this week end (15th -17th August 2008) has broken world records for the fastest time to circumnavigate the world. It runs on 100% recycled vegetable oil!
I understand that there are those out there that would rather spend £1 per litre on new vetetable oil to mix with normal diesel costing about £1.30 per litre in a 50% mix, but I do not think that represents a good saving in addition it’s not as environmentally friendly as using 100% waste vegetable oil. It doesn’t seem to make much economic sense either and those in the industry are starting to see the damage that straight vegetable oil mixed with diesel is doing to diesel fuel pumps.
Now to the subject of economics and maths when I went to school I was taught that 2500 multiplied by 1 = 2500, so if you save £1 per litre by making the bio diesel your self then for 2500 litres you save £2500!
Regarding the issue on exempt production I trust the following will enlighten some individuals:
Revenue & Customs Brief 43/07
Follow up to Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07 on Biofuels Simplification
· Revenue & Customs Brief 37/07
issued on 19 April 2007 confirmed that the following changes applying to biofuel producers were to be introduced:
· A production threshold of 2,500 litres per annum below which producers will not need to enter premises, submit returns or pay duty, and
· A reduction in the frequency of returns for all but the largest producers (defined as those producing over 450,000 litres per annum) from monthly to quarterly.
We can now confirm that these measures will be introduced on 30 June 2007.
Hope the above information has been useful; I look forward to meeting those that are interested in this environmentally friendly way of producing your own fuel.
Honestly...there's some muppets on here!
I'm surprised they let some people have access to a PC!
Tony and I have been using SVO and Biodiesel for ages now in our vehicles and it's absolutely fine.
No tax until you use 2500 litres Southy. No licences required for personal use up to this limit.
The Biodiesel process does indeed involve some nasty chemicals which you don't want to start playing with unless you REALLY know what you're doing.
Honestly...there's some muppets on here!
I'm surprised they let some people have access to a PC!
Tony and I have been using SVO and Biodiesel for ages now in our vehicles and it's absolutely fine.
No tax until you use 2500 litres Southy. No licences required for personal use up to this limit.
The Biodiesel process does indeed involve some nasty chemicals which you don't want to start playing with unless you REALLY know what you're doing.
Angelo you are of course entitled to your opinion; although given this is a new venture I question how much experience you have of running vehicles on bio-diesel.
Bio-diesel will destroy any modern common rail diesel- the reasons viscosity. The very high pressures these pumps operate at are not able to deal with the greater levels of viscosity present in (even well made!) biodiesel.
The use of biodiesel will invalidate any warranty on a car. Those that do allow the use of bio-diesel under warranty require it to be made to the relevant European standards, this standard can only be achieved by large scale production.
Fresh vegetable oil is 82p a litre even with a production cost of 15p this is still 97p a litre plus a lot of time and effort.
Collect waste from your local chippie?
Only registered collectors are allowed to collect waste oil; the 'producer' of the waste oil will be liable for a fine that could amount to thousands of pounds if he is caught by environmental health (registered collectors have a habit of 'dobbing' in those producers they suspect of selling to joe public.)
Save your money convert to LPG (£1500-£2000) Flo gas retail it for 44p a litre.
Angelo you are of course entitled to your opinion; although given this is a new venture I question how much experience you have of running vehicles on bio-diesel.
Bio-diesel will destroy any modern common rail diesel- the reasons viscosity. The very high pressures these pumps operate at are not able to deal with the greater levels of viscosity present in (even well made!) biodiesel.
The use of biodiesel will invalidate any warranty on a car. Those that do allow the use of bio-diesel under warranty require it to be made to the relevant European standards, this standard can only be achieved by large scale production.
Fresh vegetable oil is 82p a litre even with a production cost of 15p this is still 97p a litre plus a lot of time and effort.
Collect waste from your local chippie?
Only registered collectors are allowed to collect waste oil; the 'producer' of the waste oil will be liable for a fine that could amount to thousands of pounds if he is caught by environmental health (registered collectors have a habit of 'dobbing' in those producers they suspect of selling to joe public.)
Save your money convert to LPG (£1500-£2000) Flo gas retail it for 44p a litre.
what crap you spout lpg.
1. You will not invalidate your warranty if you use EN standard biodiesel. All German cars are DESIGNED to run on it.
2. You do not need to be a licensed waste carrier to collect oil.
3. You will not be fined for giving your oil away to persons issuing the correct paperwork - all you need to keep is a Waste Transfer Notice to prove 'Duty of Care'.
4. You don't WANT to use new fresh vegetable oil. Waste oil has a higher calorific value AND is cheaper.
5. How the hell do you convert a diesel car to run on LPG.??!!
Muppet.
what crap you spout lpg.
1. You will not invalidate your warranty if you use EN standard biodiesel. All German cars are DESIGNED to run on it.
2. You do not need to be a licensed waste carrier to collect oil.
3. You will not be fined for giving your oil away to persons issuing the correct paperwork - all you need to keep is a Waste Transfer Notice to prove 'Duty of Care'.
4. You don't WANT to use new fresh vegetable oil. Waste oil has a higher calorific value AND is cheaper.
5. How the hell do you convert a diesel car to run on LPG.??!!
Yes - that is ill-informed rubbish.
The EA guidelines allow individuals to collect waste oil under code LRW003 for biodiesel production without a waste carriers licence (it's low risk waste - though there are rules on its safe storage and the amount that can be stored/processed at once).
And it is quite possible to produce EN standard bio yourself. In fact, the personal bio produced by some individuals in Southampton has turned out to be better quality than from the two closest commercial outlets (Morrison's B30 excluded, but then, that is mostly Diesel).
Yes - that is ill-informed rubbish.
The EA guidelines allow individuals to collect waste oil under code LRW003 for biodiesel production without a waste carriers licence (it's low risk waste - though there are rules on its safe storage and the amount that can be stored/processed at once).
And it is quite possible to produce EN standard bio yourself. In fact, the personal bio produced by some individuals in Southampton has turned out to be better quality than from the two closest commercial outlets (Morrison's B30 excluded, but then, that is mostly Diesel).
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 10:15am Sun 17 Aug 08
Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too!
Angelo
Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 2:20pm Sun 17 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Angelo[/bold] wrote:
Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too!
Angelo
[/quote] you remove the derv tank place gas bottle in boot,you change the type of pump but can keep the injectors,its all ready been done to loads of derv cars,
and your wrong about veggie oil doing damage to pump they can take (check with bosh,paris rone,lucis,and any other pump maker and they will tell you the same)veggie oil,derv and parafin,(parafin not allowed to be used on the roads) there has been reg fishingmen been using veggie oil in there boats for over 50 years if your ever in the silly isle there a boat there called the sprit of the isles that has a gardener x12 engine and he never used any thing but veggie oil the boat is 46 years old and still has the first engine that was fitted.all this gear those people are selling is just a money maker, and you dont need it,used veggie oil all you need to do is warm it up run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit.
5 litres is the max you can store in a home.licences are needed if you want to store more.and you libal to pay duty on veggie oil put in a car check with customs and excice,if they stop you,you have to prove that you have paid duty.
Angelo wrote:
Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too!
Angelo
you remove the derv tank place gas bottle in boot,you change the type of pump but can keep the injectors,its all ready been done to loads of derv cars,
and your wrong about veggie oil doing damage to pump they can take (check with bosh,paris rone,lucis,and any other pump maker and they will tell you the same)veggie oil,derv and parafin,(parafin not allowed to be used on the roads) there has been reg fishingmen been using veggie oil in there boats for over 50 years if your ever in the silly isle there a boat there called the sprit of the isles that has a gardener x12 engine and he never used any thing but veggie oil the boat is 46 years old and still has the first engine that was fitted.all this gear those people are selling is just a money maker, and you dont need it,used veggie oil all you need to do is warm it up run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit.
5 litres is the max you can store in a home.licences are needed if you want to store more.and you libal to pay duty on veggie oil put in a car check with customs and excice,if they stop you,you have to prove that you have paid duty.
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 4:39pm Sun 17 Aug 08
[you remove the derv tank place gas bottle in boot,you change the type of pump but can keep the injectors,its all ready been done to loads of derv cars,
and your wrong about veggie oil doing damage to pump they can take (check with bosh,paris rone,lucis,and any other pump maker and they will tell you the same)veggie oil,derv and parafin,(parafin not allowed to be used on the roads) there has been reg fishingmen been using veggie oil in there boats for over 50 years if your ever in the silly isle there a boat there called the sprit of the isles that has a gardener x12 engine and he never used any thing but veggie oil the boat is 46 years old and still has the first engine that was fitted.all this gear those people are selling is just a money maker, and you dont need it,used veggie oil all you need to do is warm it up run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit.
5 litres is the max you can store in a home.licences are needed if you want to store more.and you libal to pay duty on veggie oil put in a car check with customs and excice,if they stop you,you have to prove that you have paid duty.
] Southy wrote,
I think this article from at:http://www.go-lpg
.co.uk/diesel.html
Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?
There are currently two ways of using LPG as a fuel for a Diesel engine;
1. To truly convert the engine by reducing its compression ratio and provide it with spark ignition.
Lack of Spark Ignition
Diesel engines do not have this.
Spark ignition can be provided in several ways but they all amount to the same thing.
The most effective is to remove the cylinder head and machine spark plug holes into the places where the Diesel injectors were sited. This is only possible if there is enough 'meat' in that position. If not, the spark plug holes may have to be placed elsewhere in the combustion chamber. The existing holes for the original Diesel injectors may either be plugged or perhaps be used for direct LPG injection. Leaving the Diesel injectors in place would bring no benefit when the next factor is taken into account......
Reduction of Compression Ratio
This must be done before the engine could be run properly on LPG or Petrol for that matter. Diesels often run at a compression ratio of roughly 16-1 (one of the reasons they are more economical) whereas Petrol and LPG engines need a ratio of around 10-1. One way of reducing the compression ratio is to fit some form of spacer inbetween the cylinder head and cylinder block mating surfaces in order to reduce the compression ratio of the engine. This may present problems of gasket sealing because two head gaskets would have to be used. Another solution is to replace the original pistons for redesigned ones with different (deeper) crown depressions, addressing the compression ratio problem but now the costs are beginning to escalate, and it must be remembered that when both of these changes (provision for spark ignition and reduction of compression ratio) have been made, the engine isn't a Diesel any longer.
Design Limits, Stresses and RPM
Although the Diesel engine is relatively slow-revving and produces its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version, this is not the case when it is converted to run on LPG. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on LPG because its maximum torque has been pushed higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. Even if the 'top end' of a Diesel has been fully reworked, the crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) will suffer higher stresses at increased RPM necessary when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. FinaIly, note that in all of the above cases the converted engine will cannot be a true Diesel or even a dual fuel engine as it will have lost its higher compression ratio and the means to inject Diesel.
Conclusion
The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.
2. To mix LPG with the existing Diesel fuel before induction (Fumigation, not Conversion)
Various attempts have been made to achieve this with varying amounts of success. Go LPG! have examined many systems and installations and after much consideration have come to this conclusion;
Overall, the Savings are Not Huge...
None of the LPG / Diesel mix systems examined have resulted in Diesel consumption being reduced by more than 25%. Those savings made must also have LPG costs (for the LPG that replaces some of the Diesel fuel consumed) subtracted from that 25% saving. This results in final savings of only the low teens of %, or thereabouts.
There are other problems to consider as well - The unmodified Diesel engine was relatively slow-revving, producing its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version. This is not the case when it is converted to run on Diesel and LPG mix. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on Diesel / LPG mix because its maximum torque will have been moved higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. The crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) were all designed to rev. at a lower rate. These components will suffer much higher stresses (stress increases at the square of RPM) at the increased RPM necessary to get sufficient torque when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. Given the low overall savings achieved (to date) and the cost of the adaption ( often equal to that of an injected Petrol engine conversion) many miles would have to be covered before any real savings are realised whilst reliability has been reduced. This does not seem to be an economically viable alternative.*
* Summer 2008 - We keep an open mind.
As world Diesel prices continue to rise sharply, there may be more economic benefit in mixing LPG with Diesel. We are still waiting to see a system that works well and comes with audited figures for reliability and the cost savings achieved. If such a system comes along, with UK LPG accreditation, we'll do some long-term evaluation before a decision is made to offer it to our customers.
Benefit becomes Burden
There are some other benefits apart from saving fuel cost.
The Diesel engine becomes quieter and more responsive when using the LPG / Diesel mix. The classic Diesel 'Knock' can be greatly reduced. The main reason for increased smoothness and reduced noise (vibration) is that the LPG element begins its combustion before the Diesel fuel does, a result of 'detonation' due to the compression ratio being so high. The engine may also get up to its optimium temperature more quickly, whilst harmful emissions like Particulates and Carbon Monoxide can be reduced. These all appear to be benefits.
Sadly, a new set of problems arise when the Driver begins to use the increased performance of an engine that wasn't designed to rev to the new, higher levels. As a result of this apparent improvement in performance, one of the best attributes of the Diesel engine (relative longevity and reliability) is dramatically reduced by the Diesel / LPG adaption.
Conclusion
On a purely fuel cost-reducing basis this adaption or fumigation system does not appear to be an attractive or useful alternative for the average Diesel motorist. That doesn't mean that the people working on these projects should stop, we hope they succeed. Perhaps their research will continue and go on to give us all a better solution.
Overall Conclusion
Above it has been shown that niether true conversion of a Diesel engine nor the mixing (Dual fuelling, Fumigation) of LPG with Diesel give economic benefits large enough to make either choice worthwhile for the average motorist. With current LPG and Diesel technology as it stands, it would be more economical to simply remove the Diesel engine and fit a Petrol equivalent, which answers our original question -
'Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?'
The answer, to date, is a qualified 'No'.
Angelo
Southy wrote,
I think this article from at:http://www.go-lpg
.co.uk/diesel.html
Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?
There are currently two ways of using LPG as a fuel for a Diesel engine;
1. To truly convert the engine by reducing its compression ratio and provide it with spark ignition.
Lack of Spark Ignition
Diesel engines do not have this.
Spark ignition can be provided in several ways but they all amount to the same thing.
The most effective is to remove the cylinder head and machine spark plug holes into the places where the Diesel injectors were sited. This is only possible if there is enough 'meat' in that position. If not, the spark plug holes may have to be placed elsewhere in the combustion chamber. The existing holes for the original Diesel injectors may either be plugged or perhaps be used for direct LPG injection. Leaving the Diesel injectors in place would bring no benefit when the next factor is taken into account......
Reduction of Compression Ratio
This must be done before the engine could be run properly on LPG or Petrol for that matter. Diesels often run at a compression ratio of roughly 16-1 (one of the reasons they are more economical) whereas Petrol and LPG engines need a ratio of around 10-1. One way of reducing the compression ratio is to fit some form of spacer inbetween the cylinder head and cylinder block mating surfaces in order to reduce the compression ratio of the engine. This may present problems of gasket sealing because two head gaskets would have to be used. Another solution is to replace the original pistons for redesigned ones with different (deeper) crown depressions, addressing the compression ratio problem but now the costs are beginning to escalate, and it must be remembered that when both of these changes (provision for spark ignition and reduction of compression ratio) have been made, the engine isn't a Diesel any longer.
Design Limits, Stresses and RPM
Although the Diesel engine is relatively slow-revving and produces its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version, this is not the case when it is converted to run on LPG. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on LPG because its maximum torque has been pushed higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. Even if the 'top end' of a Diesel has been fully reworked, the crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) will suffer higher stresses at increased RPM necessary when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. FinaIly, note that in all of the above cases the converted engine will cannot be a true Diesel or even a dual fuel engine as it will have lost its higher compression ratio and the means to inject Diesel.
Conclusion
The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.
2. To mix LPG with the existing Diesel fuel before induction (Fumigation, not Conversion)
Various attempts have been made to achieve this with varying amounts of success. Go LPG! have examined many systems and installations and after much consideration have come to this conclusion;
Overall, the Savings are Not Huge...
None of the LPG / Diesel mix systems examined have resulted in Diesel consumption being reduced by more than 25%. Those savings made must also have LPG costs (for the LPG that replaces some of the Diesel fuel consumed) subtracted from that 25% saving. This results in final savings of only the low teens of %, or thereabouts.
There are other problems to consider as well - The unmodified Diesel engine was relatively slow-revving, producing its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version. This is not the case when it is converted to run on Diesel and LPG mix. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on Diesel / LPG mix because its maximum torque will have been moved higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. The crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) were all designed to rev. at a lower rate. These components will suffer much higher stresses (stress increases at the square of RPM) at the increased RPM necessary to get sufficient torque when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. Given the low overall savings achieved (to date) and the cost of the adaption ( often equal to that of an injected Petrol engine conversion) many miles would have to be covered before any real savings are realised whilst reliability has been reduced. This does not seem to be an economically viable alternative.*
* Summer 2008 - We keep an open mind.
As world Diesel prices continue to rise sharply, there may be more economic benefit in mixing LPG with Diesel. We are still waiting to see a system that works well and comes with audited figures for reliability and the cost savings achieved. If such a system comes along, with UK LPG accreditation, we'll do some long-term evaluation before a decision is made to offer it to our customers.
Benefit becomes Burden
There are some other benefits apart from saving fuel cost.
The Diesel engine becomes quieter and more responsive when using the LPG / Diesel mix. The classic Diesel 'Knock' can be greatly reduced. The main reason for increased smoothness and reduced noise (vibration) is that the LPG element begins its combustion before the Diesel fuel does, a result of 'detonation' due to the compression ratio being so high. The engine may also get up to its optimium temperature more quickly, whilst harmful emissions like Particulates and Carbon Monoxide can be reduced. These all appear to be benefits.
Sadly, a new set of problems arise when the Driver begins to use the increased performance of an engine that wasn't designed to rev to the new, higher levels. As a result of this apparent improvement in performance, one of the best attributes of the Diesel engine (relative longevity and reliability) is dramatically reduced by the Diesel / LPG adaption.
Conclusion
On a purely fuel cost-reducing basis this adaption or fumigation system does not appear to be an attractive or useful alternative for the average Diesel motorist. That doesn't mean that the people working on these projects should stop, we hope they succeed. Perhaps their research will continue and go on to give us all a better solution.
Overall Conclusion
Above it has been shown that niether true conversion of a Diesel engine nor the mixing (Dual fuelling, Fumigation) of LPG with Diesel give economic benefits large enough to make either choice worthwhile for the average motorist. With current LPG and Diesel technology as it stands, it would be more economical to simply remove the Diesel engine and fit a Petrol equivalent, which answers our original question -
Posted by: fred bloggs 2nd on 5:42pm Sun 17 Aug 08
errrr yes the name of that president, around the time of Alexandre Graham Bell in approximately 1876, what's his name errrrr wasn't that bloke who's name begins with B, ends in H, you know the one, that icon of the oil industry that talked us into going to war with Iraq and causing almost total economic and environmental destruction to the world and humanity!
Fred Bloggs the second
errrr yes the name of that president, around the time of Alexandre Graham Bell in approximately 1876, what's his name errrrr wasn't that bloke who's name begins with B, ends in H, you know the one, that icon of the oil industry that talked us into going to war with Iraq and causing almost total economic and environmental destruction to the world and humanity!
[quote][bold]l[/bold] wrote:
what crap you spout lpg. 1. You will not invalidate your warranty if you use EN standard biodiesel. All German cars are DESIGNED to run on it. 2. You do not need to be a licensed waste carrier to collect oil. 3. You will not be fined for giving your oil away to persons issuing the correct paperwork - all you need to keep is a Waste Transfer Notice to prove 'Duty of Care'. 4. You don't WANT to use new fresh vegetable oil. Waste oil has a higher calorific value AND is cheaper. 5. How the hell do you convert a diesel car to run on LPG.??!! Muppet. [/quote] me think you doth protest too much! Look forward to reporting your sources of waste oil
l wrote:
what crap you spout lpg. 1. You will not invalidate your warranty if you use EN standard biodiesel. All German cars are DESIGNED to run on it. 2. You do not need to be a licensed waste carrier to collect oil. 3. You will not be fined for giving your oil away to persons issuing the correct paperwork - all you need to keep is a Waste Transfer Notice to prove 'Duty of Care'. 4. You don't WANT to use new fresh vegetable oil. Waste oil has a higher calorific value AND is cheaper. 5. How the hell do you convert a diesel car to run on LPG.??!! Muppet.
me think you doth protest too much! Look forward to reporting your sources of waste oil
Posted by: finally convinced on 8:22pm Sun 17 Aug 08
[quote][bold]southy[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Angelo[/bold] wrote: Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too! Angelo [/quote] you remove the derv tank place gas bottle in boot,you change the type of pump but can keep the injectors,its all ready been done to loads of derv cars, and your wrong about veggie oil doing damage to pump they can take (check with bosh,paris rone,lucis,and any other pump maker and they will tell you the same)veggie oil,derv and parafin,(parafin not allowed to be used on the roads) there has been reg fishingmen been using veggie oil in there boats for over 50 years if your ever in the silly isle there a boat there called the sprit of the isles that has a gardener x12 engine and he never used any thing but veggie oil the boat is 46 years old and still has the first engine that was fitted.all this gear those people are selling is just a money maker, and you dont need it,used veggie oil all you need to do is warm it up run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit. 5 litres is the max you can store in a home.licences are needed if you want to store more.and you libal to pay duty on veggie oil put in a car check with customs and excice,if they stop you,you have to prove that you have paid duty.[/quote] At last someone is making sense.
Pop down your local dealership buy a £30,000 BMW diesel then head off to your local chippies to fill your tank (don't forget the paper filter) of course being German it will be covered by warranty!
Driving heaven!
southy wrote:
Angelo wrote: Well LPG you fail to mention that in order to run LPG on a diesel you still need a tank for your DERV and you will also need to install and find a place for your large LPG storage tanks somewhere on your vehicle! It seems that you also have forgotten to include the cost of DERV used in the LPG mix to power the vehicle too! Angelo
you remove the derv tank place gas bottle in boot,you change the type of pump but can keep the injectors,its all ready been done to loads of derv cars, and your wrong about veggie oil doing damage to pump they can take (check with bosh,paris rone,lucis,and any other pump maker and they will tell you the same)veggie oil,derv and parafin,(parafin not allowed to be used on the roads) there has been reg fishingmen been using veggie oil in there boats for over 50 years if your ever in the silly isle there a boat there called the sprit of the isles that has a gardener x12 engine and he never used any thing but veggie oil the boat is 46 years old and still has the first engine that was fitted.all this gear those people are selling is just a money maker, and you dont need it,used veggie oil all you need to do is warm it up run it though a fine paper filter and add 1 table spoon full of white sprit. 5 litres is the max you can store in a home.licences are needed if you want to store more.and you libal to pay duty on veggie oil put in a car check with customs and excice,if they stop you,you have to prove that you have paid duty.
At last someone is making sense.
Pop down your local dealership buy a £30,000 BMW diesel then head off to your local chippies to fill your tank (don't forget the paper filter) of course being German it will be covered by warranty!
Driving heaven!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 8:40pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Angelo you wrote that not me,and you need to check out lancing they use a diesel engine,on some of there lpg machines and all they do is change the type of pump,the ratio of lpg will expand 64 times greater from liquid to gas and needs a mix of 200 to 1 to ignite under compression only (dont need a spark plug)a standard diesel pump will keep the injectors open to long a much shorter timing is needed thats why you need to change the pump.
a diesel engine can also be run on your waste engine oil from the sump it just needs to be clean so not to block up the injectors.
this gear that them people are selling is just a money spinner dont get con into buying one,thats why when you use waste cooking oil you run it though filters to get the muck out so you dont block the injectors.
Angelo you wrote that not me,and you need to check out lancing they use a diesel engine,on some of there lpg machines and all they do is change the type of pump,the ratio of lpg will expand 64 times greater from liquid to gas and needs a mix of 200 to 1 to ignite under compression only (dont need a spark plug)a standard diesel pump will keep the injectors open to long a much shorter timing is needed thats why you need to change the pump.
a diesel engine can also be run on your waste engine oil from the sump it just needs to be clean so not to block up the injectors.
this gear that them people are selling is just a money spinner dont get con into buying one,thats why when you use waste cooking oil you run it though filters to get the muck out so you dont block the injectors.
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 9:51pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Southy,
The article I mentioned above explains it all:http://www.go-lp
g
.co.uk/diesel.html, basically it does not make economic sense to the average motorist to convert a diesel to lpg as you suggested.
I expect that the group of British lads on the BBC News 24 program yesterday, travelling 2500 miles from the UK to Greece (Grease to Greece) making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil whilst on route, is an illusion!
Angelo
Southy,
The article I mentioned above explains it all:http://www.go-lp
g
.co.uk/diesel.html, basically it does not make economic sense to the average motorist to convert a diesel to lpg as you suggested.
I expect that the group of British lads on the BBC News 24 program yesterday, travelling 2500 miles from the UK to Greece (Grease to Greece) making bio diesel from waste vegetable oil whilst on route, is an illusion!
Posted by: southy, redbridge on 10:55pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Angelo read all my post again i did not say at any time it was cheaper i just said it was easy to change over,but i do know you can get nearly 300 miles out of a 15kg (32lb) gas bottle with a 2 litre engine.
if the bbc crew is doing it the way i told you how its done theres no reason why they cant do it,it is has easy has i said check out a program called myth busters they ran an experiment a while back make bio diesel the way i said.
Angelo read all my post again i did not say at any time it was cheaper i just said it was easy to change over,but i do know you can get nearly 300 miles out of a 15kg (32lb) gas bottle with a 2 litre engine.
if the bbc crew is doing it the way i told you how its done theres no reason why they cant do it,it is has easy has i said check out a program called myth busters they ran an experiment a while back make bio diesel the way i said.
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 8:12am Mon 18 Aug 08
Southy, thanks for your comments above. As far as I can see you were supporting lpg's comments above.
We've now established that it doesn’t make financial sense to convert the average diesel car to run with lpg, if you're saying that a mix of straight vegetable oil (SVO) will not cause harm to the diesel injection system then the more environmentally approach of producing bio diesel from waste vegetable oil (WVO) is definitely not going to harm the diesel injection system of the car especially considering that WVO’s viscosity is a lot less than SVO.
The benefits of using what is a waste product, WVO, seems to be lost on you, despite the British lads in the BBC NEWS article “Grease to Greece” doing precisely that, by collecting WVO from restaurants on route and converting it to bio diesel.
Angelo
Southy, thanks for your comments above. As far as I can see you were supporting lpg's comments above.
We've now established that it doesn’t make financial sense to convert the average diesel car to run with lpg, if you're saying that a mix of straight vegetable oil (SVO) will not cause harm to the diesel injection system then the more environmentally approach of producing bio diesel from waste vegetable oil (WVO) is definitely not going to harm the diesel injection system of the car especially considering that WVO’s viscosity is a lot less than SVO.
The benefits of using what is a waste product, WVO, seems to be lost on you, despite the British lads in the BBC NEWS article “Grease to Greece” doing precisely that, by collecting WVO from restaurants on route and converting it to bio diesel.
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 8:16am Mon 18 Aug 08
Southy, here's the correct reply without the obvious mistake!
Southy, thanks for your comments above. As far as I can see you were supporting lpg's comments above.
We've now established that it doesn’t make financial sense to convert the average diesel car to run with lpg, if you're saying that a mix of straight vegetable oil (SVO) will not cause harm to the diesel injection system then the more environmentally approach of producing bio diesel from waste vegetable oil (WVO) is definitely not going to harm the diesel injection system of the car especially considering that bio diesel’s viscosity is a lot less than SVO.
The benefits of using what is a waste product, WVO, seems to be lost on you, despite the British lads in the BBC NEWS article “Grease to Greece” doing precisely that, by collecting WVO from restaurants on route and converting to bio diesel.
Angelo
Southy, here's the correct reply without the obvious mistake!
Southy, thanks for your comments above. As far as I can see you were supporting lpg's comments above.
We've now established that it doesn’t make financial sense to convert the average diesel car to run with lpg, if you're saying that a mix of straight vegetable oil (SVO) will not cause harm to the diesel injection system then the more environmentally approach of producing bio diesel from waste vegetable oil (WVO) is definitely not going to harm the diesel injection system of the car especially considering that bio diesel’s viscosity is a lot less than SVO.
The benefits of using what is a waste product, WVO, seems to be lost on you, despite the British lads in the BBC NEWS article “Grease to Greece” doing precisely that, by collecting WVO from restaurants on route and converting to bio diesel.
I think you may have missed the point sell the diesel car (admittedly this could be tough if the injectors are clogged with 'home brew') buy a petrol car and convert to LPG.
Thank you for the engineering lesson though (haven't you got a business to run?)
Seriously though this is a commercial venture which is looking to make money; how? Through you the innocent punters caveat emptor - your vehicle and wallet maybe at risk!
I am sure it is only a matter of time before the next article 'Vegetables ate my car'!
I think you may have missed the point sell the diesel car (admittedly this could be tough if the injectors are clogged with 'home brew') buy a petrol car and convert to LPG.
Thank you for the engineering lesson though (haven't you got a business to run?)
Seriously though this is a commercial venture which is looking to make money; how? Through you the innocent punters caveat emptor - your vehicle and wallet maybe at risk!
I am sure it is only a matter of time before the next article 'Vegetables ate my car'!
[quote][bold]lpg[/bold] wrote:
I think you may have missed the point sell the diesel car (admittedly this could be tough if the injectors are clogged with 'home brew') buy a petrol car and convert to LPG. Thank you for the engineering lesson though (haven't you got a business to run?) Seriously though this is a commercial venture which is looking to make money; how? Through you the innocent punters caveat emptor - your vehicle and wallet maybe at risk! I am sure it is only a matter of time before the next article 'Vegetables ate my car'! [/quote] lol! good comment!
lpg wrote:
I think you may have missed the point sell the diesel car (admittedly this could be tough if the injectors are clogged with 'home brew') buy a petrol car and convert to LPG. Thank you for the engineering lesson though (haven't you got a business to run?) Seriously though this is a commercial venture which is looking to make money; how? Through you the innocent punters caveat emptor - your vehicle and wallet maybe at risk! I am sure it is only a matter of time before the next article 'Vegetables ate my car'!
Posted by: Angelo, Southampton on 9:09am Mon 18 Aug 08
Hello again lpg on,
You're right the article I referred to suggested exactly that, it's cheaper to buy a petorl engine and convert to lpg
Still using a fossil fuel when using lpg though and fuel economy goes down with lpg.
Perhaps those British boys on
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