Knives off our streets
Teens live in climate of fear
IT is a disturbing snapshot of the state of youth violence and intimidation on Southampton's streets.
A shocking new report, revealed exclusively in the Daily Echo today, shows how teenagers in the city are living in a climate of fear.
Some are so scared of being attacked both in and out of school they have admitted to carrying weapons including knives and guns to protect themselves.
The results of the survey, commissioned by Southampton police and said to be the first of its kind in the country, will make eye-opening reading for parents.
Carried out by researchers from the University of Portsmouth during anti-bullying week last November, it has seen every pupil aged 14 and 15 - around 1,500 girls and boys - in the city's 14 secondary schools asked to take part.
But the full report can finally be unveiled today - after the Daily Echo demanded its release through a Freedom of Information request to Hampshire police.
The alarming statistics show:
- One in five pupils have admitted carrying a knife, gun or other weapon.
- More than half of those did so for self-defence or protection.
- 20 youths said they carried the knives or guns for the purpose of attacking someone.
- More than one in five pupils don't feel safe outside school.
- One in four claim they are victims of bullying while one in ten are worried about being bullied both inside and outside school.
- Three quarters of the pupils said they had witnessed bullying in school in the past 12 months.
- One in seven are worried they will be physically attacked outside school.
Click HERE to read about our campaign Knives off our streets
Gang violence in Southampton was also raised in the questionnaires carried out by 76 classes - and more than 75 per cent of children said they were aware of one or several gangs operating in their neighbourhood.
To get accurate results, the pupils were told to define "gang" as something they had been "a member" of for more than three months, that together they felt that doing things against the law was OK, that they did break the law as part of a group, that they spent a lot of time together "on the street" and that they had their own territory in part of the city.
More than half the pupils said that they were aware of at least one gang - most said several - operating within their school.
A total of 55 pupils admitted to being part of a criminal gang - the majority, 41, were boys but a further 14 were girls.
Chief Inspector Andrew Bottomley said: "Knife crime is a real and massive issue for us - not because we are any worse than any other city in the country, but because we have seen the full consequences of knives in a number of high profile murders over the last year.
"These should act as a reminder to everyone of the devastation that carrying a knife can have - not just for the victim and their family - but also to the offender.
"We commissioned this research so that we knew what we were dealing with and so that we could do something meaningful to try and stop young people from carrying or using knives. The results show that Southampton is no worse than anywhere else, however it's worrying that a number of young people have openly admitted to carrying a weapon within Southampton over the last 12 months. Even one person carrying a knife is one too many.
"The data that we now have means that we can work closer with schools and youth services to tackle this problem head on. We now have a true reflection of young people's attitudes and feelings, not just about carrying weapons, but also about whether they feel safe and how big a problem bullying is for them. It's important to understand all of this so that we know why young people feel that they have to carry a weapon for protection.
Just the start'
"This is just the start of the work that we are doing to tackle the knife crime culture and we are linking in with national bodies and sharing our research and our experiences so that other areas can do the same.
"Knife crime is a growing trend nationally. It's a community problem which needs long-term solutions. Southampton is keen to lead the way and help make people feel safer, no matter where they are in the city."
Ann Dyton, inclusion manager for Southampton City Council, said: "It's important that we know how young people in our schools feel about their own safety and issues like bullying and carrying weapons.
"We are encouraged that this survey shows the situation in Southampton is no different to elsewhere in the country. However, it is a concern that some of our children don't feel safe.
"Our priority is not only to make sure our children feel safe, but to ensure that they are safe. We now intend to build on the work we already do with young people through schools and youth services to reinforce the message that carrying knives or other weapons is not a good choice."
Click to read the report 'Staying Safe and Out of Trouble'
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CommentPosted by: Family Man, Bitterne on 10:13am Tue 22 Jul 08
It has been proven that it is young people who are often at the greatest risk of crime, and this survey supports it.
I suspect that as with almost every other facet of life, it is the (often very small) minority that cause the problem but it is the majority that get tarred with the same brush and often end up demonised.
And this demonisation is all to often due to biased reporting by the press, and again, all too often, because it sells newspapers or captures the imagination.
I recall a meeting once when the police met the public to hear their concerns...one old person said that she was afraid to go out "because of all these muggings" she had read about, the truth was in fact that there had been no muggings or the like for many years in the town... but that was what she believed, and continued to believe..
The press has a lot to answer for in the way it reports things, and the way that our perception of life is manipulated, either deliberately or as a by-product of selective reporting.
The vast majority of young people are decent kids trying to make their way in a pretty difficult and hostile world!
It has been proven that it is young people who are often at the greatest risk of crime, and this survey supports it.
I suspect that as with almost every other facet of life, it is the (often very small) minority that cause the problem but it is the majority that get tarred with the same brush and often end up demonised.
And this demonisation is all to often due to biased reporting by the press, and again, all too often, because it sells newspapers or captures the imagination.
I recall a meeting once when the police met the public to hear their concerns...one old person said that she was afraid to go out "because of all these muggings" she had read about, the truth was in fact that there had been no muggings or the like for many years in the town... but that was what she believed, and continued to believe..
The press has a lot to answer for in the way it reports things, and the way that our perception of life is manipulated, either deliberately or as a by-product of selective reporting.
The vast majority of young people are decent kids trying to make their way in a pretty difficult and hostile world!
Posted by: Ian, Chandlers Ford on 10:19am Tue 22 Jul 08
My 16 year old son has been set upon by chav scum 4 times in separate incidents over the last couple of years. In 3 cases the police have been involved but the most that ever happened was that one of the scumbags (who was already well known to police) received some sort of formal warning. It seems to be much worse now then when I was a lad and I think it will keep getting worse as long as they know they can keep getting away with it.
My 16 year old son has been set upon by chav scum 4 times in separate incidents over the last couple of years. In 3 cases the police have been involved but the most that ever happened was that one of the scumbags (who was already well known to police) received some sort of formal warning. It seems to be much worse now then when I was a lad and I think it will keep getting worse as long as they know they can keep getting away with it.
Posted by: string bean, Wiltshire on 10:37am Tue 22 Jul 08
The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice!
The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice!
Posted by: Bambi on 11:21am Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote][bold]string bean[/bold] wrote:
The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice![/quote] Yeh, put these losers who think it's cool to carry an offensive weapon in the army, where they'll, um, get to play with offensive weapons. Um
string bean wrote:
The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice!
Yeh, put these losers who think it's cool to carry an offensive weapon in the army, where they'll, um, get to play with offensive weapons. Um
Posted by: Family Man, Bitterne on 11:40am Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Bambi[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]string bean[/bold] wrote: The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice![/quote] Yeh, put these losers who think it's cool to carry an offensive weapon in the army, where they'll, um, get to play with offensive weapons. Um[/quote] As a proportion of the population, a much higher number than should be expected of those who are homeless or those unable to cope with society are ex-servicemen and women who find extreme difficulty in adjusting to civilian life from service life.
Unless and until real (long term if necessary)support is provided you would be making a bad problem worse. The charities, like the Royal British Legion and many others do their best, but the care that the government and indeed the MOD is signally lacking!
Discipline is all very well in it's place, prison doesn't seem particularly effective, neither, necessarily would the services.
Bambi wrote:
string bean wrote: The gov needs to grow a pair and bring back national service for those losers who think it is cool to carry an offensive weapon. Send them out to afghan, or better still, put them in a drill square with an RSM, they will think twice!
Yeh, put these losers who think it's cool to carry an offensive weapon in the army, where they'll, um, get to play with offensive weapons. Um
As a proportion of the population, a much higher number than should be expected of those who are homeless or those unable to cope with society are ex-servicemen and women who find extreme difficulty in adjusting to civilian life from service life.
Unless and until real (long term if necessary)support is provided you would be making a bad problem worse. The charities, like the Royal British Legion and many others do their best, but the care that the government and indeed the MOD is signally lacking!
Discipline is all very well in it's place, prison doesn't seem particularly effective, neither, necessarily would the services.
Posted by: Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa on 11:53am Tue 22 Jul 08
You're right to say most kids are good cos I strongly support that ethos it is those scum chavs that aren't, who carry knives cos they are too weak and thick to either talk their way round or avoid trouble altogether. Because they have this inadequacy they will never see their way of making themselves accepted by the decent guys so they attempt to prove themselves as 'hard men' by shanking another to death hence losing 1 good guy to a worthless zero who will never be anything more unless they turn on their receivers, educate themselves in compassion and caring for others and above all respect to worthy candidates instead of other useless chavs by whom they attempt to model themselves on.
Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues.
If the good guys can get a purchase in society then in wont be so 'hip' to carry weapons and it wont be 'cool' to destroy other peoples lives.
Dont give up guys.
You're right to say most kids are good cos I strongly support that ethos it is those scum chavs that aren't, who carry knives cos they are too weak and thick to either talk their way round or avoid trouble altogether. Because they have this inadequacy they will never see their way of making themselves accepted by the decent guys so they attempt to prove themselves as 'hard men' by shanking another to death hence losing 1 good guy to a worthless zero who will never be anything more unless they turn on their receivers, educate themselves in compassion and caring for others and above all respect to worthy candidates instead of other useless chavs by whom they attempt to model themselves on.
Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues.
If the good guys can get a purchase in society then in wont be so 'hip' to carry weapons and it wont be 'cool' to destroy other peoples lives.
Dont give up guys.
Posted by: Condor Man, Southampton on 11:53am Tue 22 Jul 08
Sadly when this problem started around 10 years ago the PC brigade prevented teachers from stamping on these types- mainly from single parent families on council estates because apparently they have rights too.
National Service is a waste of public money, people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.
Sadly when this problem started around 10 years ago the PC brigade prevented teachers from stamping on these types- mainly from single parent families on council estates because apparently they have rights too.
National Service is a waste of public money, people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.
Posted by: judge mental, southampton on 12:06pm Tue 22 Jul 08
[bold]bold[/bold] bullys are usually sad ugly people,only one way to deal with them,give them back more than they put others through,and yes,southampton is now a very sad,ugly city.[bold]bold[/bold]
bullys are usually sad ugly people,only one way to deal with them,give them back more than they put others through,and yes,southampton is now a very sad,ugly city.
Posted by: Hank Hill, Arlen on 12:10pm Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote][bold]judge mental[/bold] wrote:
[bold]bold[/bold] bullys are usually sad ugly people,only one way to deal with them,give them back more than they put others through,and yes,southampton is now a very sad,ugly city.[bold]bold[/bold] [/quote] Murderers are just bullies. If you stand up to them, they crumble
judge mental wrote:
bullys are usually sad ugly people,only one way to deal with them,give them back more than they put others through,and yes,southampton is now a very sad,ugly city.
Murderers are just bullies. If you stand up to them, they crumble
Posted by: halftime orange, chandler's ford on 12:31pm Tue 22 Jul 08
My son was a witness in an assault case. His co-witness refused to testify as he was beaten up before the case came up. My son, four years on, is still afraid to go out on his own. We live in an increasingly threatening society and I find it totally unsurprising that juveniles carry offensive weapons. As has already been observed, respect for others has all but gone from our world and it will take something like a war or an outbreak of avian flu to get the indigenous population to work together rather than prey on each other.
My son was a witness in an assault case. His co-witness refused to testify as he was beaten up before the case came up. My son, four years on, is still afraid to go out on his own. We live in an increasingly threatening society and I find it totally unsurprising that juveniles carry offensive weapons. As has already been observed, respect for others has all but gone from our world and it will take something like a war or an outbreak of avian flu to get the indigenous population to work together rather than prey on each other.
Posted by: Paramjit Bahia, Southampton on 1:22pm Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Condor Man[/bold] wrote:
Sadly when this problem started around 10 years ago the PC brigade prevented teachers from stamping on these types- mainly from single parent families on council estates because apparently they have rights too. National Service is a waste of public money, people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.[/quote] Fully support your last sentence “people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.” But we all know what happened to New Labour's hollow sound bite education education and education.
Regarding PC Brigade, as I myself am frequently politically incorrect I too have very poor opinion of these wishy washy pseudo liberal hypocrites. Most of them do not even practice what they preach.
In my experience SOME fairly useless teachers and other professionals also tend to use political correctness as an excuse for covering up their own laziness/failings. So I am in slight disagreement with you on this one.
Condor Man wrote:
Sadly when this problem started around 10 years ago the PC brigade prevented teachers from stamping on these types- mainly from single parent families on council estates because apparently they have rights too. National Service is a waste of public money, people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.
Fully support your last sentence “people should simply be taught to have respect for others and take responsibility for themselves and their families.” But we all know what happened to New Labour's hollow sound bite education education and education.
Regarding PC Brigade, as I myself am frequently politically incorrect I too have very poor opinion of these wishy washy pseudo liberal hypocrites. Most of them do not even practice what they preach.
In my experience SOME fairly useless teachers and other professionals also tend to use political correctness as an excuse for covering up their own laziness/failings. So I am in slight disagreement with you on this one.
Posted by: General Malaise, Nearby on 1:40pm Tue 22 Jul 08
The main cause of this climate of fear is the gangs of feral kids whose parent(s) neither know nor care what their offspring are up to.
Coupled with a criminal justice system that is too liberal and dispenses totally inadequate punishments, this leads to a climate where kids know they can commit all kinds of offences without being seriously punished.
This requires a number of remedies.
1. Make people accountable and responsible for their kids - fines if necessary !
2. Come down hard on the kids at the first offence - no soft options !
3. Get the police out on the streets and reduce their paperwork. Let them harass the little chavs who they know cause the majority of the problems.
The main cause of this climate of fear is the gangs of feral kids whose parent(s) neither know nor care what their offspring are up to.
Coupled with a criminal justice system that is too liberal and dispenses totally inadequate punishments, this leads to a climate where kids know they can commit all kinds of offences without being seriously punished.
This requires a number of remedies.
1. Make people accountable and responsible for their kids - fines if necessary !
2. Come down hard on the kids at the first offence - no soft options !
3. Get the police out on the streets and reduce their paperwork. Let them harass the little chavs who they know cause the majority of the problems.
Posted by: Paramjit Bahia, Southampton on 1:41pm Tue 22 Jul 08
Some contributors have expressed concern about media creating the fear factor. While it can not be denied that press contributes towards shaping public perceptions it is also a fact that they can only create a smoke if there is a fire in the first place.
How come Echo had to obtain this information by using Freedom of Information request? Why no mention was made of this report last week when even Chair of Hampshire Police Authority joined up with senior police officers in an exercise in hoodwinking the public that knife crime has gone down? Surely she and police Head Quarters would have been aware of this disturbing report, So was this deliberate ploy by New Labour Chair of the Police Authority to spin the story to suit her fast sinking political party?
Some contributors have expressed concern about media creating the fear factor. While it can not be denied that press contributes towards shaping public perceptions it is also a fact that they can only create a smoke if there is a fire in the first place.
How come Echo had to obtain this information by using Freedom of Information request? Why no mention was made of this report last week when even Chair of Hampshire Police Authority joined up with senior police officers in an exercise in hoodwinking the public that knife crime has gone down? Surely she and police Head Quarters would have been aware of this disturbing report, So was this deliberate ploy by New Labour Chair of the Police Authority to spin the story to suit her fast sinking political party?
Posted by: Dave, Southampton on 1:51pm Tue 22 Jul 08
It is unfortunate that the Echo chooses to recite results from a survey whose method has been criticised as inadequate.
If you ask certain youngsters 'Have you ever carried a knife' many will say 'yes' out of bravado.
So 1 in 5 Southampton young people have not carried a knife. Properly structured surveys (for instance one conducted in Merseyside) indicate that the figure is about 2 in 100.
The Echo should be more responsible. It should avoid sensationalising issues through uncritical use of poor data.
The paper may otherwise have the effect of frightening a small number of people unecessarily.
It is unfortunate that the Echo chooses to recite results from a survey whose method has been criticised as inadequate.
If you ask certain youngsters 'Have you ever carried a knife' many will say 'yes' out of bravado.
So 1 in 5 Southampton young people have not carried a knife. Properly structured surveys (for instance one conducted in Merseyside) indicate that the figure is about 2 in 100.
The Echo should be more responsible. It should avoid sensationalising issues through uncritical use of poor data.
The paper may otherwise have the effect of frightening a small number of people unecessarily.
Posted by: J on 2:18pm Tue 22 Jul 08
In some respect I do agree that kids today are living in an increasingly dangerous world and are subjected to more threats than I was when I was growing up. On the other hand I think the media's perception on some issues makes it worse and has a detrimental effect on modern parenting and we tend to protect our children in a bubble. I see many young children growing up with a notion that all people are evil, though to a lesser extent aren't we all.
The knife crime, where it is a growing and alarming trend seems to get more publicity than other issues at the moment. The fact that most offences are carried out by teenagers or people in their early 20s is concerning to say the least. You've got to remember that people were stabbed before the current uproar and will be stabbed after a 'resolution is reached'. Its quite concerning that the issue hasn't been tackled before, as it doesn't take a rocket scientist that the kitchen is like a weapons shop. I can count at my home we have 15 knives in the kitchen, all of which some moron could use to kill someone.
There are as many opinions to the cause of surgency of knife crime as there are people, but my opinion is that the problem lies in the overly 'happy, clappy' PC society we live in. I remember as a child I was taught discipline in school and teachers were something we were afraid of and respected, or otherwise there would be severe consequences. Today though children are the ones who have the power over the teacher and the teachers are practically powerless. Detentions have to be cleared with parents and often the parents say their child has done nothing wrong. The truth is that parents today are too naive, they believe their children won't get to anything bad, though kids are kids and boundaries will be pushed and broken. That is a generalisation, I know but it is what is happening to a greater or lesser extent.
The second reason why knife crime is happening is in the 'lower' classes of the society. Where I do think that the so called chavs are parasitic worms, it is alarming that nearly after every weekend we see mug shots of these people next to a stabbing story. I think that people don't know how to be angry and how to direct anger. More than likely these individuals come from dysfunctional families and lack drive in life. Another issue to look at is how many of the stabbings are alcohol related. Maybe the problem isn't knife crime as such but related to alcohol? Should the government investigate this link and the current culture that surrounds alcohol consumption. In my opinion the government should increase the tax on alcohol and lower the tax on petrol. What do we need more, the need to get drunk or the freedom to move and roam freely, whether to work or holiday (not that camping/caravans are my thing, but each to their own)?
I saw a post here saying that national service is a waste of money. I would disagree with the statement. I've gone through the system and it really does teach you to respect one another, more than any other form of team building. The truth is that we need to give the power back to those who we entrusted it in the first place. Give it back to the teachers and the police. No more of this official warning lark, as it is something you get at work if you've made a boo boo
In some respect I do agree that kids today are living in an increasingly dangerous world and are subjected to more threats than I was when I was growing up. On the other hand I think the media's perception on some issues makes it worse and has a detrimental effect on modern parenting and we tend to protect our children in a bubble. I see many young children growing up with a notion that all people are evil, though to a lesser extent aren't we all.
The knife crime, where it is a growing and alarming trend seems to get more publicity than other issues at the moment. The fact that most offences are carried out by teenagers or people in their early 20s is concerning to say the least. You've got to remember that people were stabbed before the current uproar and will be stabbed after a 'resolution is reached'. Its quite concerning that the issue hasn't been tackled before, as it doesn't take a rocket scientist that the kitchen is like a weapons shop. I can count at my home we have 15 knives in the kitchen, all of which some moron could use to kill someone.
There are as many opinions to the cause of surgency of knife crime as there are people, but my opinion is that the problem lies in the overly 'happy, clappy' PC society we live in. I remember as a child I was taught discipline in school and teachers were something we were afraid of and respected, or otherwise there would be severe consequences. Today though children are the ones who have the power over the teacher and the teachers are practically powerless. Detentions have to be cleared with parents and often the parents say their child has done nothing wrong. The truth is that parents today are too naive, they believe their children won't get to anything bad, though kids are kids and boundaries will be pushed and broken. That is a generalisation, I know but it is what is happening to a greater or lesser extent.
The second reason why knife crime is happening is in the 'lower' classes of the society. Where I do think that the so called chavs are parasitic worms, it is alarming that nearly after every weekend we see mug shots of these people next to a stabbing story. I think that people don't know how to be angry and how to direct anger. More than likely these individuals come from dysfunctional families and lack drive in life. Another issue to look at is how many of the stabbings are alcohol related. Maybe the problem isn't knife crime as such but related to alcohol? Should the government investigate this link and the current culture that surrounds alcohol consumption. In my opinion the government should increase the tax on alcohol and lower the tax on petrol. What do we need more, the need to get drunk or the freedom to move and roam freely, whether to work or holiday (not that camping/caravans are my thing, but each to their own)?
I saw a post here saying that national service is a waste of money. I would disagree with the statement. I've gone through the system and it really does teach you to respect one another, more than any other form of team building. The truth is that we need to give the power back to those who we entrusted it in the first place. Give it back to the teachers and the police. No more of this official warning lark, as it is something you get at work if you've made a boo boo
Posted by: General Malaise, Nearby on 3:05pm Tue 22 Jul 08
To J,
I agree with most of your comments but would suggest that the majority of knife crime is gang related rather than alcohol related and the two issues should not be confused.
I think just as the housing market is undergoing an 'adjustment' so should the current 'liberal' climate.
Let's recognise that kids need to be taught that rights come with responsibilities, if you don't accept the latter you lose the former. Give control back to parents, teachers and the police, and strictly enforce that control.
To J,
I agree with most of your comments but would suggest that the majority of knife crime is gang related rather than alcohol related and the two issues should not be confused.
I think just as the housing market is undergoing an 'adjustment' so should the current 'liberal' climate.
Let's recognise that kids need to be taught that rights come with responsibilities, if you don't accept the latter you lose the former. Give control back to parents, teachers and the police, and strictly enforce that control.
Posted by: Matt, Southampton on 3:26pm Tue 22 Jul 08
Not that this is the reason for children carrying knives, but what has happened to our society oiver the last 10-15 years is making life very difficult for many. In addition to a weak criminal justice system too removed from society and its ills, our increasingly greedy society that is seemingly unconcerned about each other (this is nto a anti-Thatcher thing either as a people can resist whatever it wants when it really believes it).
[bold]One thing I think kids need is a hope that if they work hard, then they'll be able to achieve something out of life.[/bold]
As a thirty-something in a responsible (labeit not very well-paying) job, life is a **** struggle and I have an education behond me and a will to keep plugging away.
If you are a young person lookign at your future, you can see how long it will take to get on the mortgage ladder (which is still absurdly important in this country) and that can't be good. Plus, the youth have to beat off migrants for the jobs that used to provide that early sense of earning and self-respect that came with it. That's not against migrants, that's against the government for failing to recognise that it would cause an imbalance in our society.
The housing bubble that made a good number of people richer has ruined it for the young, and without hope that they can achieve, where do they go and what do they see as a way out?
If you don't have a way out, you choose something else and sadly, it seems the youth are using their aggression negatively and quite frankly given the lack of discipline they have had, a lack of genuine opportunities and rubbish role models that we 'elder' members of society have allowed to develop, who can blame them?
Not that this is the reason for children carrying knives, but what has happened to our society oiver the last 10-15 years is making life very difficult for many. In addition to a weak criminal justice system too removed from society and its ills, our increasingly greedy society that is seemingly unconcerned about each other (this is nto a anti-Thatcher thing either as a people can resist whatever it wants when it really believes it).
One thing I think kids need is a hope that if they work hard, then they'll be able to achieve something out of life.
As a thirty-something in a responsible (labeit not very well-paying) job, life is a **** struggle and I have an education behond me and a will to keep plugging away.
If you are a young person lookign at your future, you can see how long it will take to get on the mortgage ladder (which is still absurdly important in this country) and that can't be good. Plus, the youth have to beat off migrants for the jobs that used to provide that early sense of earning and self-respect that came with it. That's not against migrants, that's against the government for failing to recognise that it would cause an imbalance in our society.
The housing bubble that made a good number of people richer has ruined it for the young, and without hope that they can achieve, where do they go and what do they see as a way out?
If you don't have a way out, you choose something else and sadly, it seems the youth are using their aggression negatively and quite frankly given the lack of discipline they have had, a lack of genuine opportunities and rubbish role models that we 'elder' members of society have allowed to develop, who can blame them?
Posted by: George on 3:30pm Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote]Let's recognise that kids need to be taught that rights come with responsibilities[/quote]
Very well-put
Let's recognise that kids need to be taught that rights come with responsibilities
Very well-put
Posted by: General Malaise, Nearby on 3:41pm Tue 22 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Matt[/bold] wrote:
Not that this is the reason for children carrying knives, but what has happened to our society oiver the last 10-15 years is making life very difficult for many. In addition to a weak criminal justice system too removed from society and its ills, our increasingly greedy society that is seemingly unconcerned about each other (this is nto a anti-Thatcher thing either as a people can resist whatever it wants when it really believes it). [bold]One thing I think kids need is a hope that if they work hard, then they'll be able to achieve something out of life.[/bold] As a thirty-something in a responsible (labeit not very well-paying) job, life is a **** struggle and I have an education behond me and a will to keep plugging away. If you are a young person lookign at your future, you can see how long it will take to get on the mortgage ladder (which is still absurdly important in this country) and that can't be good. Plus, the youth have to beat off migrants for the jobs that used to provide that early sense of earning and self-respect that came with it. That's not against migrants, that's against the government for failing to recognise that it would cause an imbalance in our society. The housing bubble that made a good number of people richer has ruined it for the young, and without hope that they can achieve, where do they go and what do they see as a way out? If you don't have a way out, you choose something else and sadly, it seems the youth are using their aggression negatively and quite frankly given the lack of discipline they have had, a lack of genuine opportunities and rubbish role models that we 'elder' members of society have allowed to develop, who can blame them? [/quote] Matt,
Some good points, but
those that want to work hard will achieve and succeed. The problem is too many kids think society owes them a living and want it all now.
As an example - BBC showed an interview with some kids in Norwich who would not take a job paying £7.50/hr, they preferred to stay on the dole as it wasn't enough. 17 years old and £300 a week is not enough ?
Matt wrote:
Not that this is the reason for children carrying knives, but what has happened to our society oiver the last 10-15 years is making life very difficult for many. In addition to a weak criminal justice system too removed from society and its ills, our increasingly greedy society that is seemingly unconcerned about each other (this is nto a anti-Thatcher thing either as a people can resist whatever it wants when it really believes it). One thing I think kids need is a hope that if they work hard, then they'll be able to achieve something out of life. As a thirty-something in a responsible (labeit not very well-paying) job, life is a **** struggle and I have an education behond me and a will to keep plugging away. If you are a young person lookign at your future, you can see how long it will take to get on the mortgage ladder (which is still absurdly important in this country) and that can't be good. Plus, the youth have to beat off migrants for the jobs that used to provide that early sense of earning and self-respect that came with it. That's not against migrants, that's against the government for failing to recognise that it would cause an imbalance in our society. The housing bubble that made a good number of people richer has ruined it for the young, and without hope that they can achieve, where do they go and what do they see as a way out? If you don't have a way out, you choose something else and sadly, it seems the youth are using their aggression negatively and quite frankly given the lack of discipline they have had, a lack of genuine opportunities and rubbish role models that we 'elder' members of society have allowed to develop, who can blame them?
Matt,
Some good points, but
those that want to work hard will achieve and succeed. The problem is too many kids think society owes them a living and want it all now.
As an example - BBC showed an interview with some kids in Norwich who would not take a job paying £7.50/hr, they preferred to stay on the dole as it wasn't enough. 17 years old and £300 a week is not enough ?
Posted by: Wewullywinky on 5:55pm Tue 22 Jul 08
It's not just teens that live in fear. It's all normal citizens that live a lawful and respectable life.
I bet, me for one,many parents live in fear that if we let our teens out to visit their mates will they return.
It's not just teens that live in fear. It's all normal citizens that live a lawful and respectable life.
I bet, me for one,many parents live in fear that if we let our teens out to visit their mates will they return.
Posted by: John, Soton on 7:29pm Tue 22 Jul 08
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote:
"Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues."
I take it you attended University here then?
Where we see bullying as an everyday norm!
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote:
"Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues."
I take it you attended University here then?
Where we see bullying as an everyday norm!
Posted by: Jim, Southampton on 7:38pm Tue 22 Jul 08
its strange to see that this problem has been going on for such a long time and yet the majority of people seem to scratch theyre heads and say i dont know how to solve this. even the police seem pretty useless. hasnt anyone thought about how the kids themselves feel. And i dont mean asking them questions and getting back what they think we want to hear answers. its not difficult to think that this started pretty much not with gangs but with the spoof of Ali G, who i thought was funny, but most children who saw it took it seriously *we had about 5 years of bling*, and that being in a gang has an atmosphere of being cool. the PC brigade has made it impossible without fear of being persecuted, to take any actions, because the kids have rights too, but thats not the point. at what point does it go from human rights to no human rights, because its swung the other way around. what about the rights of those injured or murdered, the rights of the grieving or those who have lost a close friend due to being stabbed or shot. the point is, that we can continue down this road of this or that person has human rights and therefor we can only give them a formal warning, to the morals of society which seem to have disappeared. if the law is now very flexible and democratic then you need to point out that doing nothing infringes on the human rights on the rest of the population who fear going out, that cant live without worry. its all interconnected that the culprits dont get punished, and together with a system that we made pretty much perfect in the 70s to 80s, which is why immigrants come to the UK in the first place, taking jobs for cheaper than we could do them, leaving children without much future and having to rely on a credit card system which is now breaking down itself. we are one step from total anarchy if this continues. I myself when i was about 20 used credit cards in a careless way, i now have 2 children that i am desperate to look after and yet the housing prices for me are far too much and due to my credit history the chances of getting anywhere by the time my children are in theyre teens is now minimal. and yet, despite the fact the country is in a massive financial turmoil, whichever way you look, people still insist on shunning those with no money, who are trying to do theyre best, but getting nowhere because everything is too expensive, and everything requires a rating. If it is difficult for me, who has experience in all these things, how the hell do you imagine a child or teenager sees this. They may as well give up, join a gang, and ignore it. And the funny thing is, thats EXACTLY what theyre doing......
its strange to see that this problem has been going on for such a long time and yet the majority of people seem to scratch theyre heads and say i dont know how to solve this. even the police seem pretty useless. hasnt anyone thought about how the kids themselves feel. And i dont mean asking them questions and getting back what they think we want to hear answers. its not difficult to think that this started pretty much not with gangs but with the spoof of Ali G, who i thought was funny, but most children who saw it took it seriously *we had about 5 years of bling*, and that being in a gang has an atmosphere of being cool. the PC brigade has made it impossible without fear of being persecuted, to take any actions, because the kids have rights too, but thats not the point. at what point does it go from human rights to no human rights, because its swung the other way around. what about the rights of those injured or murdered, the rights of the grieving or those who have lost a close friend due to being stabbed or shot. the point is, that we can continue down this road of this or that person has human rights and therefor we can only give them a formal warning, to the morals of society which seem to have disappeared. if the law is now very flexible and democratic then you need to point out that doing nothing infringes on the human rights on the rest of the population who fear going out, that cant live without worry. its all interconnected that the culprits dont get punished, and together with a system that we made pretty much perfect in the 70s to 80s, which is why immigrants come to the UK in the first place, taking jobs for cheaper than we could do them, leaving children without much future and having to rely on a credit card system which is now breaking down itself. we are one step from total anarchy if this continues. I myself when i was about 20 used credit cards in a careless way, i now have 2 children that i am desperate to look after and yet the housing prices for me are far too much and due to my credit history the chances of getting anywhere by the time my children are in theyre teens is now minimal. and yet, despite the fact the country is in a massive financial turmoil, whichever way you look, people still insist on shunning those with no money, who are trying to do theyre best, but getting nowhere because everything is too expensive, and everything requires a rating. If it is difficult for me, who has experience in all these things, how the hell do you imagine a child or teenager sees this. They may as well give up, join a gang, and ignore it. And the funny thing is, thats EXACTLY what theyre doing......
Posted by: L E, U.K on 9:01pm Tue 22 Jul 08
morons breed, and raise more morons, it goes on and on. Sterilise them, problem solved.
morons breed, and raise more morons, it goes on and on. Sterilise them, problem solved.
Posted by: me on 8:56am Wed 23 Jul 08
[quote][bold]Dave[/bold] wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Echo chooses to recite results from a survey whose method has been criticised as inadequate.
If you ask certain youngsters 'Have you ever carried a knife' many will say 'yes' out of bravado.
So 1 in 5 Southampton young people have not carried a knife. Properly structured surveys (for instance one conducted in Merseyside) indicate that the figure is about 2 in 100.
The Echo should be more responsible. It should avoid sensationalising issues through uncritical use of poor data.
The paper may otherwise have the effect of frightening a small number of people unecessarily.[/quote] yes but even so these children shouldn't be growing up thinking it's cool to say they have a knife, children should be completely against carrying knives guns etc. people need to get it through to their heads that this isn't how they should act, maybe if the parents wernt so lazy to bring their kids up properly they would know.
Dave wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Echo chooses to recite results from a survey whose method has been criticised as inadequate.
If you ask certain youngsters 'Have you ever carried a knife' many will say 'yes' out of bravado.
So 1 in 5 Southampton young people have not carried a knife. Properly structured surveys (for instance one conducted in Merseyside) indicate that the figure is about 2 in 100.
The Echo should be more responsible. It should avoid sensationalising issues through uncritical use of poor data.
The paper may otherwise have the effect of frightening a small number of people unecessarily.
yes but even so these children shouldn't be growing up thinking it's cool to say they have a knife, children should be completely against carrying knives guns etc. people need to get it through to their heads that this isn't how they should act, maybe if the parents wernt so lazy to bring their kids up properly they would know.
Posted by: Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa on 12:06am Thu 24 Jul 08
[quote]Posted by: John, Soton on 7:29pm Tue 22 Jul 08
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote: "Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues." I take it you attended University here then? Where we see bullying as an everyday norm!
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote:
"Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless[/quote]
Yes I did actually ... twice but I also live there ...well have ahouse there but now live in Santa Clara California and work in Grinnell, Iowa which is east of Des Moines but as DM is the principal city and ... well the state capital I advertise that. So does that exclude me fom contributing to this forum?
I still come back to Soton as a course of visa requirement and still have many friends living there - What exactly is your issue here?
Posted by: John, Soton on 7:29pm Tue 22 Jul 08
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote: "Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless, badly educated and with recurring relationship issues." I take it you attended University here then? Where we see bullying as an everyday norm!
Finlay, Des Moines, Iowa Wrote:
"Southampton is by far the worse place I have ever known for bullying, at all levels of society from the cradle to the grave and in just every known instance the people involved are worthless
Yes I did actually ... twice but I also live there ...well have ahouse there but now live in Santa Clara California and work in Grinnell, Iowa which is east of Des Moines but as DM is the principal city and ... well the state capital I advertise that. So does that exclude me fom contributing to this forum?
I still come back to Soton as a course of visa requirement and still have many friends living there - What exactly is your issue here?
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